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	<title>Comments on: Fox uses debunked &#8216;terrorism expert&#8217; to slam Rep. Ellison&#8217;s trip to Mecca</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 06:39:39 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: PRCS</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-2#comment-22856</link>
		<dc:creator>PRCS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22856</guid>
		<description>John VanderHorck
Comment posted January 10, 2009 @ 9:15 pm

&quot;An American citizen has no right to practice a religion that I disagree with.&quot;

No, John. No one in this country has the right to PRACTICE those tenets of their respective belief system which violate the United States Constitution and/or American law.

One can believe whatever one wants. But the line draws at attempts to force those beliefs upon others and attempts to replace our Constitution with religious laws.

We don&#039;t punitively amputate people&#039;s hands here, or stone adulterers, or allow polygamy or kill apostoates or...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John VanderHorck<br />
Comment posted January 10, 2009 @ 9:15 pm</p>
<p>&#8220;An American citizen has no right to practice a religion that I disagree with.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, John. No one in this country has the right to PRACTICE those tenets of their respective belief system which violate the United States Constitution and/or American law.</p>
<p>One can believe whatever one wants. But the line draws at attempts to force those beliefs upon others and attempts to replace our Constitution with religious laws.</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t punitively amputate people&#8217;s hands here, or stone adulterers, or allow polygamy or kill apostoates or&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Yael</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-1#comment-22821</link>
		<dc:creator>Yael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22821</guid>
		<description>I wish there were hundreds, thousands, even millions of Steve Emersons in this country. The fact that there is only one speaks to the fragility of American security.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish there were hundreds, thousands, even millions of Steve Emersons in this country. The fact that there is only one speaks to the fragility of American security.</p>
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		<title>By: Mobedda</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-1#comment-22820</link>
		<dc:creator>Mobedda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22820</guid>
		<description>I agree with Mr. VanderHorck. Although the tenor of this &quot;debate&quot; is alarming enough, the content is thunderously, staggeringly, depressingly, yet proudly unintelligent. These same bigots think &quot;they&quot; hate &quot;us&quot; because they&#039;re jealous, when I, as a fellow American, have a very hard time remembering not to let hate take over when I read this nakedly jingoistic and xenophobic idiocy. 

[NOT a good advertisement for Minnesota, folks. Think about it.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Mr. VanderHorck. Although the tenor of this &#8220;debate&#8221; is alarming enough, the content is thunderously, staggeringly, depressingly, yet proudly unintelligent. These same bigots think &#8220;they&#8221; hate &#8220;us&#8221; because they&#8217;re jealous, when I, as a fellow American, have a very hard time remembering not to let hate take over when I read this nakedly jingoistic and xenophobic idiocy. </p>
<p>[NOT a good advertisement for Minnesota, folks. Think about it.]</p>
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		<title>By: John VanderHorck</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-1#comment-22794</link>
		<dc:creator>John VanderHorck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22794</guid>
		<description>This is a very interesting series of questions.  It seems to boil down to this:  Can an American citizen practice his religion in this or any other country?  It seems that the majority of posters or should we say poseurs say NO!  An American citizen has no right to practice a religion that I disagree with.  

I note further that it is because he is either getting money I don&#039;t get or he is wrong and I&#039;m right!  By my count more posts were about mone than faith although a whole lot seened to bring up both.
This seems rather strange when we righteous remember Moses&#039; (Musa&#039;s) reaction to those who worshipped Baal on his descent from the mountain with the commandments.

If I remember those commandments they tell us to honor the one true God.  They do not tell us that we already are worshipping the one true God and to hate and kill those who we think are wrong.  I&#039;ve noticed that God NEVER told us who was right and who was wrong, its always been a man.  If you believe in a day of judgement, you also KNOW there will be a lot of people who will be very suprised how they will spend eternity, very suprised.  Will you be one? No of course not!  Tonight I saw a man who raped, tortured, and killed a woman for sexual thrills on TV.  After beating the murder rap the pictures he took recording his crimes where discovered and he had to do a few uears for perjury.  He found Jesus in jail and belives he is saved.  How very handy, how very nice of God to agree with our position on the issues.

I, like you, know that God agrees with me, always has, always will.  He&#039;d be a fool not to believe in the USA, land of the scared, home of the true believers!

And my God can beat up your God with one arm tied behind his back!  Yes, that&#039;s right children &quot;GOTT MIT UNS&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very interesting series of questions.  It seems to boil down to this:  Can an American citizen practice his religion in this or any other country?  It seems that the majority of posters or should we say poseurs say NO!  An American citizen has no right to practice a religion that I disagree with.  </p>
<p>I note further that it is because he is either getting money I don&#8217;t get or he is wrong and I&#8217;m right!  By my count more posts were about mone than faith although a whole lot seened to bring up both.<br />
This seems rather strange when we righteous remember Moses&#8217; (Musa&#8217;s) reaction to those who worshipped Baal on his descent from the mountain with the commandments.</p>
<p>If I remember those commandments they tell us to honor the one true God.  They do not tell us that we already are worshipping the one true God and to hate and kill those who we think are wrong.  I&#8217;ve noticed that God NEVER told us who was right and who was wrong, its always been a man.  If you believe in a day of judgement, you also KNOW there will be a lot of people who will be very suprised how they will spend eternity, very suprised.  Will you be one? No of course not!  Tonight I saw a man who raped, tortured, and killed a woman for sexual thrills on TV.  After beating the murder rap the pictures he took recording his crimes where discovered and he had to do a few uears for perjury.  He found Jesus in jail and belives he is saved.  How very handy, how very nice of God to agree with our position on the issues.</p>
<p>I, like you, know that God agrees with me, always has, always will.  He&#8217;d be a fool not to believe in the USA, land of the scared, home of the true believers!</p>
<p>And my God can beat up your God with one arm tied behind his back!  Yes, that&#8217;s right children &#8220;GOTT MIT UNS&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: isa kocher</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-1#comment-22776</link>
		<dc:creator>isa kocher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22776</guid>
		<description>&quot;You can try to change the subject, you can try to spin it with your pure first amendment rights blather, you can make every specious argument you can think of in an attempt to protect your precious world view.&quot;  First amendment blather! It&#039;s heartening to know our citizen&#039;s values are in the right place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You can try to change the subject, you can try to spin it with your pure first amendment rights blather, you can make every specious argument you can think of in an attempt to protect your precious world view.&#8221;  First amendment blather! It&#8217;s heartening to know our citizen&#8217;s values are in the right place.</p>
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		<title>By: isa kocher</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-1#comment-22773</link>
		<dc:creator>isa kocher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22773</guid>
		<description>reading the remarks here, it&#039;s mind boggling that no one seems the least bit ashamed of their hate, their prejudice, their abject ignorance. Since when is trial by accusation a mark of anything but proof that the accuser has nothing to base their accusation on. It&#039;s a bit like accusing all Irish of being the IRA, all Italians of being Mafia, all Kentuckians of bootlegging, all Mississippians of Cajun cooking. NO. Not all Thai are not transsexual kick boxers. Sometimes some people are just people.


Of course, all opinions are protected by the first amendment, but the first amendment doesn&#039;t immunize against dumb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>reading the remarks here, it&#8217;s mind boggling that no one seems the least bit ashamed of their hate, their prejudice, their abject ignorance. Since when is trial by accusation a mark of anything but proof that the accuser has nothing to base their accusation on. It&#8217;s a bit like accusing all Irish of being the IRA, all Italians of being Mafia, all Kentuckians of bootlegging, all Mississippians of Cajun cooking. NO. Not all Thai are not transsexual kick boxers. Sometimes some people are just people.</p>
<p>Of course, all opinions are protected by the first amendment, but the first amendment doesn&#8217;t immunize against dumb.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave O'Connor</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-1#comment-22762</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave O'Connor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22762</guid>
		<description>The dissembling of the argument is so typical of Huffington - and such types.  Emerson has been a respected voice on the topic of terrorism longer than Huffington spewed hot air. (And even before Ellisoon played his religion shtick - but, then again, what&#039;s a joke between Minnesotans - Al Franken.)
The issue was, and for law abiding, and constitutionally abiding, people was the source of funds that sponsored Congressman Ellison&#039;s Haj.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The dissembling of the argument is so typical of Huffington &#8211; and such types.  Emerson has been a respected voice on the topic of terrorism longer than Huffington spewed hot air. (And even before Ellisoon played his religion shtick &#8211; but, then again, what&#8217;s a joke between Minnesotans &#8211; Al Franken.)<br />
The issue was, and for law abiding, and constitutionally abiding, people was the source of funds that sponsored Congressman Ellison&#8217;s Haj.</p>
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		<title>By: Dinah Lord</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-1#comment-22759</link>
		<dc:creator>Dinah Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22759</guid>
		<description>My-my-my Brian.  Did we leave our sense of humor at home?  Or have you just lost it, period?

I just asked a few questions and see nothing in your reply that would thoroughly discredit me - or anyone else for that matter.  (Unless you want to count thoroughly discrediting yourself.)

The only hatemonger spewing venom here appears to be you, my little possum.

You can try to change the subject, you can try to spin it with your pure first amendment rights blather, you can make every specious argument you can think of in an attempt to protect your precious world view.  Heck, you can even make fun of me for making a little phunny about &#039;Governor Ellison&#039;.  BTW - that was a joke, son.  That&#039;s okay.  I&#039;m happy to allow you your freedom of speech even though you seem determined to trample all over mine.  

It is kind of ironic, doncha think?

The fact remains that Rep Ellison was less than forthcoming to the public about the financial arrangements regarding his trip from the get-go and now he&#039;s trying to get in front of the story. 

And now I think I am going back to my blog to do something constructive and report on how Keith Ellison and 21 other courageous Democrats voted &#039;PRESENT&#039; on the House of Representatives recent resolution in support of Israel.

Now, there&#039;s REAL leadership for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My-my-my Brian.  Did we leave our sense of humor at home?  Or have you just lost it, period?</p>
<p>I just asked a few questions and see nothing in your reply that would thoroughly discredit me &#8211; or anyone else for that matter.  (Unless you want to count thoroughly discrediting yourself.)</p>
<p>The only hatemonger spewing venom here appears to be you, my little possum.</p>
<p>You can try to change the subject, you can try to spin it with your pure first amendment rights blather, you can make every specious argument you can think of in an attempt to protect your precious world view.  Heck, you can even make fun of me for making a little phunny about &#8216;Governor Ellison&#8217;.  BTW &#8211; that was a joke, son.  That&#8217;s okay.  I&#8217;m happy to allow you your freedom of speech even though you seem determined to trample all over mine.  </p>
<p>It is kind of ironic, doncha think?</p>
<p>The fact remains that Rep Ellison was less than forthcoming to the public about the financial arrangements regarding his trip from the get-go and now he&#8217;s trying to get in front of the story. </p>
<p>And now I think I am going back to my blog to do something constructive and report on how Keith Ellison and 21 other courageous Democrats voted &#8216;PRESENT&#8217; on the House of Representatives recent resolution in support of Israel.</p>
<p>Now, there&#8217;s REAL leadership for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-1#comment-22744</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22744</guid>
		<description>Dinah,

So now you and Steve Emerson have something in common--you are both hatemogers that have been thoroughly discredited. Congratulations!

First, you take a news story from a Saudi agency that has an error in it (Governor vs. Representative) and ascribe it to Ellison giving himself a &quot;promotion&quot;. Setting aside for the moment the absurdity of your assertion, there are many people who would not consider a move from Federal government to state government a &quot;promotion&quot;. At any rate, it is clear to anyone with the capability of independent thought that it was an honest mistake by the reporter(s).

Then, you post a total smear job on MAS Minnesota in order to bolster your argument. So MAS Minnesota encouraged cab drivers to refuse to carry passengers with alcohol or dogs. Woo, that&#039;s hard-hitting stuff there. Better raise the alert status to mauve. Then you refer to the pack of lies your &quot;friend&quot; wrote about TiZA (I guess all you discredited hatemongers like to stick together), over which her column was cancelled. It turns out that the lies and hate she spewed incited violence and property destruction at the school, which it turns out was clearly operating within First Amendment law at a higher level than, say, the high school near us that has CCC and FCA meetings on school grounds after class. Journalists aren&#039;t supposed to do that, in case you weren&#039;t aware, and so she was rightly removed.

I think my favorite part of the article was the one about MAS being founded as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. That&#039;s like saying the US was founded as an offshoot of the British monarchy. 

Please find something more constructive and beneficial to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dinah,</p>
<p>So now you and Steve Emerson have something in common&#8211;you are both hatemogers that have been thoroughly discredited. Congratulations!</p>
<p>First, you take a news story from a Saudi agency that has an error in it (Governor vs. Representative) and ascribe it to Ellison giving himself a &#8220;promotion&#8221;. Setting aside for the moment the absurdity of your assertion, there are many people who would not consider a move from Federal government to state government a &#8220;promotion&#8221;. At any rate, it is clear to anyone with the capability of independent thought that it was an honest mistake by the reporter(s).</p>
<p>Then, you post a total smear job on MAS Minnesota in order to bolster your argument. So MAS Minnesota encouraged cab drivers to refuse to carry passengers with alcohol or dogs. Woo, that&#8217;s hard-hitting stuff there. Better raise the alert status to mauve. Then you refer to the pack of lies your &#8220;friend&#8221; wrote about TiZA (I guess all you discredited hatemongers like to stick together), over which her column was cancelled. It turns out that the lies and hate she spewed incited violence and property destruction at the school, which it turns out was clearly operating within First Amendment law at a higher level than, say, the high school near us that has CCC and FCA meetings on school grounds after class. Journalists aren&#8217;t supposed to do that, in case you weren&#8217;t aware, and so she was rightly removed.</p>
<p>I think my favorite part of the article was the one about MAS being founded as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. That&#8217;s like saying the US was founded as an offshoot of the British monarchy. </p>
<p>Please find something more constructive and beneficial to do.</p>
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		<title>By: dsk</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/22545/fox-uses-debunked-terrorism-expert-to-slam-rep-ellison-trip-to-mecca/comment-page-1#comment-22733</link>
		<dc:creator>dsk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=22545#comment-22733</guid>
		<description>Look, you can never get through to the slavering fundie right wing nutbags because they are tribal creatures and they can only understand the world through a tribal lens. Unfortunately, that&#039;s why reason why you can&#039;t get through to slavering fundie Muslim nutbags either. These two groups actually do understand the other in ways regular people cannot grasp. There is an insistence at their core that is incomprehensible to normal people; that when my &quot;tribe&quot; does it, it&#039;s okay. When &quot;their&quot; tribe does it, it&#039;s not. That&#039;s why the right wing in this country thinks it&#039;s okay for the US and its allies to torture people while still thinking it&#039;s not okay for other countries to do so, and why they cannot tolerate the normal non-tribal citizenry, who believes that the US should at the very least adhere to the same standards that it applies to others. You see, tribes are dysfunctional and held together by silence and fear. They&#039;re like alcoholic families. There will be family members who, like the normal non-tribals in the US, care about the alcoholic, are concerned about the alcoholic and invest their interest in the alcoholic, and therefore want the alcoholic to get help, but have not had their minds warped into dysfunctional tribalism by the alcoholism. But there will be family members who have been warped into believing that caring, concern, and interest means never admitting the alcoholic has a problem and fiercely resisting any and all attempts to help the alcoholic. A dysfunctional family has to have both types. As long as the US is a dysfunctional family, both types will exist and this tension will remain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, you can never get through to the slavering fundie right wing nutbags because they are tribal creatures and they can only understand the world through a tribal lens. Unfortunately, that&#8217;s why reason why you can&#8217;t get through to slavering fundie Muslim nutbags either. These two groups actually do understand the other in ways regular people cannot grasp. There is an insistence at their core that is incomprehensible to normal people; that when my &#8220;tribe&#8221; does it, it&#8217;s okay. When &#8220;their&#8221; tribe does it, it&#8217;s not. That&#8217;s why the right wing in this country thinks it&#8217;s okay for the US and its allies to torture people while still thinking it&#8217;s not okay for other countries to do so, and why they cannot tolerate the normal non-tribal citizenry, who believes that the US should at the very least adhere to the same standards that it applies to others. You see, tribes are dysfunctional and held together by silence and fear. They&#8217;re like alcoholic families. There will be family members who, like the normal non-tribals in the US, care about the alcoholic, are concerned about the alcoholic and invest their interest in the alcoholic, and therefore want the alcoholic to get help, but have not had their minds warped into dysfunctional tribalism by the alcoholism. But there will be family members who have been warped into believing that caring, concern, and interest means never admitting the alcoholic has a problem and fiercely resisting any and all attempts to help the alcoholic. A dysfunctional family has to have both types. As long as the US is a dysfunctional family, both types will exist and this tension will remain.</p>
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