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	<title>Comments on: War on Christmas Ignores the Reason for the Season</title>
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		<title>By: Joe Bodell</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-8197</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Bodell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-8197</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;&quot;Christianity&quot; is on both sides&lt;/strong&gt; Paul,&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;Some good points, but I would take Christianity&#039;s place on historical issues like slavery a step further:&#160; yes, it played a role in its eradication, but also in its origins.&#160; Yes, Christian leaders in Europe revolted against Nazi horrors, but some went right along with them.&#160; Christianity played a role in building the concept of secular government as we know it today, but remember too that the English monarchy ruled by divine right.&#160; If you want to say &quot;Christianity&quot; (that is, the institution of Christian religion) is on the generally accepted &quot;good&quot; side of a societal battle, then it&#039;s almost universally been on the bad side as well.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>&#8220;Christianity&#8221; is on both sides</strong> Paul,
<p>Some good points, but I would take Christianity&#39;s place on historical issues like slavery a step further:&nbsp; yes, it played a role in its eradication, but also in its origins.&nbsp; Yes, Christian leaders in Europe revolted against Nazi horrors, but some went right along with them.&nbsp; Christianity played a role in building the concept of secular government as we know it today, but remember too that the English monarchy ruled by divine right.&nbsp; If you want to say &#8220;Christianity&#8221; (that is, the institution of Christian religion) is on the generally accepted &#8220;good&#8221; side of a societal battle, then it&#39;s almost universally been on the bad side as well.</p>
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		<title>By: PaulFromMpls</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-8196</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulFromMpls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-8196</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Clarification with slight blush of contempt for my abilities to communicate&lt;/strong&gt; When I say &quot;if you&#039;re outraged by that opinion, you&#039;re what I&#039;m talking about,&quot; I mean: If you&#039;re outraged by the opinion I had just expressed as my own. The gentle mocking of the idea that Kwanzaa is deserving, in some automatic collective sense, of the same respect as Christmas. (It may get there someday although I doubt, unless there is a continued precipitous drop in religious Christmas stock which I don&#039;t actually foresee.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Clarification with slight blush of contempt for my abilities to communicate</strong> When I say &#8220;if you&#39;re outraged by that opinion, you&#39;re what I&#39;m talking about,&#8221; I mean: If you&#39;re outraged by the opinion I had just expressed as my own. The gentle mocking of the idea that Kwanzaa is deserving, in some automatic collective sense, of the same respect as Christmas. (It may get there someday although I doubt, unless there is a continued precipitous drop in religious Christmas stock which I don&#39;t actually foresee.)</p>
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		<title>By: PaulFromMpls</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-8195</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulFromMpls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-8195</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;More on Christianity&lt;/strong&gt; One basic attitude that reveals a certain inability to get past initial emotion is an instinctive angry reaction against the idea that Christianity had a key role in the development of the Western political and social approach, including the US. &lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;There&#039;s a large school of thought about that, that it wasn&#039;t just secularism that created and enforces the divide between the political and the religious; it was also evolution and shifts within Christianity. That is, Christianity itself helped create the basic principles of secular government we all love. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;Along the same lines, someone who thinks it&#039;s a ridiculous idea that there&#039;s something within the US that is anchored by Christianity ought to step back and ponder a few things that are either undeniably true or almost undeniably true.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;Such as, Christianity was a large part of the impulse that led to eradication of slavery. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;(Arguments that Christianity also bears some responsibility for its creation in our context, along with the other depredations of the early colonial era especially those associated with the Spanish, are both somewhat true and irrelevant to the point. They also ignore the amazing extent to which Christianity also immediately produced a solid and crucial reaction against those depredations, again especially in Spain.) &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;If you honestly go back and check out WW 2, it&#039;s hard to deny that Christianity was a major element in the emotional backdrop and makeup allowing us to gather whatever we needed to gather to help stop Hitler. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;Christianity was a deep motivator in the Civil Rights movement. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;Some of the seminal works of popular art in the western tradition are explicitly about Christianity. Dickens wrote &quot;A Christmas Carol&quot; as an conscious attempt to rescue Christmas - an attempt which actually succeeded, basically. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;And anyone who mocks an insistence on the importance of Christianity in the country must, to be consistent, therefore find &quot;It&#039;s a Wonderful life&quot; essentially a harmful, dishonest work of art at best, and ultimately an elaborate apologia for the new fascism emerging out of the Bush administration.&#160;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>More on Christianity</strong> One basic attitude that reveals a certain inability to get past initial emotion is an instinctive angry reaction against the idea that Christianity had a key role in the development of the Western political and social approach, including the US.
<p>There&#39;s a large school of thought about that, that it wasn&#39;t just secularism that created and enforces the divide between the political and the religious; it was also evolution and shifts within Christianity. That is, Christianity itself helped create the basic principles of secular government we all love. </p>
<p>Along the same lines, someone who thinks it&#39;s a ridiculous idea that there&#39;s something within the US that is anchored by Christianity ought to step back and ponder a few things that are either undeniably true or almost undeniably true.</p>
<p>Such as, Christianity was a large part of the impulse that led to eradication of slavery. </p>
<p>(Arguments that Christianity also bears some responsibility for its creation in our context, along with the other depredations of the early colonial era especially those associated with the Spanish, are both somewhat true and irrelevant to the point. They also ignore the amazing extent to which Christianity also immediately produced a solid and crucial reaction against those depredations, again especially in Spain.) </p>
<p>If you honestly go back and check out WW 2, it&#39;s hard to deny that Christianity was a major element in the emotional backdrop and makeup allowing us to gather whatever we needed to gather to help stop Hitler. </p>
<p>Christianity was a deep motivator in the Civil Rights movement. </p>
<p>Some of the seminal works of popular art in the western tradition are explicitly about Christianity. Dickens wrote &#8220;A Christmas Carol&#8221; as an conscious attempt to rescue Christmas &#8211; an attempt which actually succeeded, basically. </p>
<p>And anyone who mocks an insistence on the importance of Christianity in the country must, to be consistent, therefore find &#8220;It&#39;s a Wonderful life&#8221; essentially a harmful, dishonest work of art at best, and ultimately an elaborate apologia for the new fascism emerging out of the Bush administration.&nbsp;</p>
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		<title>By: PaulFromMpls</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-8194</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulFromMpls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-8194</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Odd essay&lt;/strong&gt; Your thesis at the start - that the &quot;War on Christmas&quot; is purely a conservative fiction - seems almost completely contradicted by what you then go on to write about, which strikes me as an intricate defense of why a War on Christmas (as Christians understand it) is perfectly reasonable.&#160; And also, incidentally, an ultimately bizarre argument that the Christmas tradition as Christians today understand it is silly and has no historical basis or importance, given that it evolved to some extent out of other things, and has changed over the years. Which Christians know, of course. &lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;More generally, typically liberals don&#039;t go to much trouble to try to understand a conservative argument, and this issue is a good example. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m not saying I agree that there is a conscious orchestrated &quot;war.&quot; It[s an accumulate change of attitudes, led by what must be referred to as PC worldview in odd alliance with the private sector.&#160; For one small example, head over to Macy&#039;s and check out the Christmas cards, and see how many of them have anything to do with the religious connotations. (Assuming Macy&#039;s still carries cards; this is based on memories of the last couple years.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;And the same thing goes for your &quot;ubiquity of Christmastime imagery&quot; - the displays of religious connotations are left to the front lawns of Christians, and there they are disappearing slowly. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;For me, one of the silliest manifestations of PC-creep is a gradual insistence that that Christmas recognition is at the same level as Kwanzaa. If you are outraged by that opinion, you&#039;re what I&#039;m talking about; do some research on Kwanzaa, though.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Odd essay</strong> Your thesis at the start &#8211; that the &#8220;War on Christmas&#8221; is purely a conservative fiction &#8211; seems almost completely contradicted by what you then go on to write about, which strikes me as an intricate defense of why a War on Christmas (as Christians understand it) is perfectly reasonable.&nbsp; And also, incidentally, an ultimately bizarre argument that the Christmas tradition as Christians today understand it is silly and has no historical basis or importance, given that it evolved to some extent out of other things, and has changed over the years. Which Christians know, of course.
<p>More generally, typically liberals don&#39;t go to much trouble to try to understand a conservative argument, and this issue is a good example. </p>
<p>I&#39;m not saying I agree that there is a conscious orchestrated &#8220;war.&#8221; It[s an accumulate change of attitudes, led by what must be referred to as PC worldview in odd alliance with the private sector.&nbsp; For one small example, head over to Macy&#39;s and check out the Christmas cards, and see how many of them have anything to do with the religious connotations. (Assuming Macy&#39;s still carries cards; this is based on memories of the last couple years.)</p>
<p>And the same thing goes for your &#8220;ubiquity of Christmastime imagery&#8221; &#8211; the displays of religious connotations are left to the front lawns of Christians, and there they are disappearing slowly. </p>
<p>For me, one of the silliest manifestations of PC-creep is a gradual insistence that that Christmas recognition is at the same level as Kwanzaa. If you are outraged by that opinion, you&#39;re what I&#39;m talking about; do some research on Kwanzaa, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Grace Kelly</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-8193</link>
		<dc:creator>Grace Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-8193</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Great Work&lt;/strong&gt; Great context and a wonderful story!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Great Work</strong> Great context and a wonderful story!</p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-8192</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-8192</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Thank you!&lt;/strong&gt; What a great piece. Thank you so much. As an atheist who celebrates the tradition of gathering with family and exchanging gifts this time of year it&#039;s refreshing to read an honest nuts-and-bolts run-down of the origin of Christmas. Really. Can&#039;t thank you enough. You will be linked, sir.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Thank you!</strong> What a great piece. Thank you so much. As an atheist who celebrates the tradition of gathering with family and exchanging gifts this time of year it&#39;s refreshing to read an honest nuts-and-bolts run-down of the origin of Christmas. Really. Can&#39;t thank you enough. You will be linked, sir.</p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-3770</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-3770</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Thank you!&lt;/strong&gt; What a great piece. Thank you so much. As an atheist who celebrates the tradition of gathering with family and exchanging gifts this time of year it&#039;s refreshing to read an honest nuts-and-bolts run-down of the origin of Christmas. Really. Can&#039;t thank you enough. You will be linked, sir.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Thank you!</strong> What a great piece. Thank you so much. As an atheist who celebrates the tradition of gathering with family and exchanging gifts this time of year it&#8217;s refreshing to read an honest nuts-and-bolts run-down of the origin of Christmas. Really. Can&#8217;t thank you enough. You will be linked, sir.</p>
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		<title>By: Grace Kelly</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-3771</link>
		<dc:creator>Grace Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-3771</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Great Work&lt;/strong&gt; Great context and a wonderful story!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Great Work</strong> Great context and a wonderful story!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: PaulFromMpls</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-3772</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulFromMpls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-3772</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Odd essay&lt;/strong&gt; Your thesis at the start - that the &quot;War on Christmas&quot; is purely a conservative fiction - seems almost completely contradicted by what you then go on to write about, which strikes me as an intricate defense of why a War on Christmas (as Christians understand it) is perfectly reasonable.&#160; And also, incidentally, an ultimately bizarre argument that the Christmas tradition as Christians today understand it is silly and has no historical basis or importance, given that it evolved to some extent out of other things, and has changed over the years. Which Christians know, of course. &lt;p&gt;
More generally, typically liberals don&#039;t go to much trouble to try to understand a conservative argument, and this issue is a good example. &lt;p&gt;
I&#039;m not saying I agree that there is a conscious orchestrated &quot;war.&quot; It[s an accumulate change of attitudes, led by what must be referred to as PC worldview in odd alliance with the private sector.&#160; For one small example, head over to Macy&#039;s and check out the Christmas cards, and see how many of them have anything to do with the religious connotations. (Assuming Macy&#039;s still carries cards; this is based on memories of the last couple years.)&lt;p&gt;
And the same thing goes for your &quot;ubiquity of Christmastime imagery&quot; - the displays of religious connotations are left to the front lawns of Christians, and there they are disappearing slowly. &lt;p&gt;
For me, one of the silliest manifestations of PC-creep is a gradual insistence that that Christmas recognition is at the same level as Kwanzaa. If you are outraged by that opinion, you&#039;re what I&#039;m talking about; do some research on Kwanzaa, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Odd essay</strong> Your thesis at the start &#8211; that the &#8220;War on Christmas&#8221; is purely a conservative fiction &#8211; seems almost completely contradicted by what you then go on to write about, which strikes me as an intricate defense of why a War on Christmas (as Christians understand it) is perfectly reasonable.&nbsp; And also, incidentally, an ultimately bizarre argument that the Christmas tradition as Christians today understand it is silly and has no historical basis or importance, given that it evolved to some extent out of other things, and has changed over the years. Which Christians know, of course.
<p>
More generally, typically liberals don&#8217;t go to much trouble to try to understand a conservative argument, and this issue is a good example. </p>
<p>
I&#8217;m not saying I agree that there is a conscious orchestrated &#8220;war.&#8221; It[s an accumulate change of attitudes, led by what must be referred to as PC worldview in odd alliance with the private sector.&nbsp; For one small example, head over to Macy&#8217;s and check out the Christmas cards, and see how many of them have anything to do with the religious connotations. (Assuming Macy&#8217;s still carries cards; this is based on memories of the last couple years.)</p>
<p>
And the same thing goes for your &#8220;ubiquity of Christmastime imagery&#8221; &#8211; the displays of religious connotations are left to the front lawns of Christians, and there they are disappearing slowly. </p>
<p>
For me, one of the silliest manifestations of PC-creep is a gradual insistence that that Christmas recognition is at the same level as Kwanzaa. If you are outraged by that opinion, you&#8217;re what I&#8217;m talking about; do some research on Kwanzaa, though.</p>
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		<title>By: PaulFromMpls</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/2864/war-on-christmas-ignores-the-reason-for-the-season/comment-page-1#comment-3773</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulFromMpls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minnesotaindependent.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/?p=2864#comment-3773</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;More on Christianity&lt;/strong&gt; One basic attitude that reveals a certain inability to get past initial emotion is an instinctive angry reaction against the idea that Christianity had a key role in the development of the Western political and social approach, including the US. &lt;p&gt;
There&#039;s a large school of thought about that, that it wasn&#039;t just secularism that created and enforces the divide between the political and the religious; it was also evolution and shifts within Christianity. That is, Christianity itself helped create the basic principles of secular government we all love. &lt;p&gt;
Along the same lines, someone who thinks it&#039;s a ridiculous idea that there&#039;s something within the US that is anchored by Christianity ought to step back and ponder a few things that are either undeniably true or almost undeniably true.&lt;p&gt;
Such as, Christianity was a large part of the impulse that led to eradication of slavery. &lt;p&gt;
(Arguments that Christianity also bears some responsibility for its creation in our context, along with the other depredations of the early colonial era especially those associated with the Spanish, are both somewhat true and irrelevant to the point. They also ignore the amazing extent to which Christianity also immediately produced a solid and crucial reaction against those depredations, again especially in Spain.) &lt;p&gt;
If you honestly go back and check out WW 2, it&#039;s hard to deny that Christianity was a major element in the emotional backdrop and makeup allowing us to gather whatever we needed to gather to help stop Hitler. &lt;p&gt;
Christianity was a deep motivator in the Civil Rights movement. &lt;p&gt;
Some of the seminal works of popular art in the western tradition are explicitly about Christianity. Dickens wrote &quot;A Christmas Carol&quot; as an conscious attempt to rescue Christmas - an attempt which actually succeeded, basically. &lt;p&gt;
And anyone who mocks an insistence on the importance of Christianity in the country must, to be consistent, therefore find &quot;It&#039;s a Wonderful life&quot; essentially a harmful, dishonest work of art at best, and ultimately an elaborate apologia for the new fascism emerging out of the Bush administration.&#160;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>More on Christianity</strong> One basic attitude that reveals a certain inability to get past initial emotion is an instinctive angry reaction against the idea that Christianity had a key role in the development of the Western political and social approach, including the US.
<p>
There&#8217;s a large school of thought about that, that it wasn&#8217;t just secularism that created and enforces the divide between the political and the religious; it was also evolution and shifts within Christianity. That is, Christianity itself helped create the basic principles of secular government we all love. </p>
<p>
Along the same lines, someone who thinks it&#8217;s a ridiculous idea that there&#8217;s something within the US that is anchored by Christianity ought to step back and ponder a few things that are either undeniably true or almost undeniably true.</p>
<p>
Such as, Christianity was a large part of the impulse that led to eradication of slavery. </p>
<p>
(Arguments that Christianity also bears some responsibility for its creation in our context, along with the other depredations of the early colonial era especially those associated with the Spanish, are both somewhat true and irrelevant to the point. They also ignore the amazing extent to which Christianity also immediately produced a solid and crucial reaction against those depredations, again especially in Spain.) </p>
<p>
If you honestly go back and check out WW 2, it&#8217;s hard to deny that Christianity was a major element in the emotional backdrop and makeup allowing us to gather whatever we needed to gather to help stop Hitler. </p>
<p>
Christianity was a deep motivator in the Civil Rights movement. </p>
<p>
Some of the seminal works of popular art in the western tradition are explicitly about Christianity. Dickens wrote &#8220;A Christmas Carol&#8221; as an conscious attempt to rescue Christmas &#8211; an attempt which actually succeeded, basically. </p>
<p>
And anyone who mocks an insistence on the importance of Christianity in the country must, to be consistent, therefore find &#8220;It&#8217;s a Wonderful life&#8221; essentially a harmful, dishonest work of art at best, and ultimately an elaborate apologia for the new fascism emerging out of the Bush administration.&nbsp;</p>
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