The ongoing U.S. Senate contest may have produced an unlikely victim: instant-runoff voting.
The controversial balloting system, in which voters rank candidates in order of preference, was on the agenda at Saturday’s Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party convention in St. Paul. At issue was whether the DFL should lend its blessing to a campaign aimed at adopting instant-runoff voting (IRV). Most significantly, this would mean that the party’s sample ballot — mailed to thousands of potential voters in the days leading up to an election — would instruct DFLers to vote yes on the ballot question.
The measure was backed by 58 percent of delegates. Unfortunately for IRV supporters, it needed to garner support from 60 percent of delegates to be adopted. The upshot: The DFL’s sample ballot will not instruct voters to support the adoption of IRV. While this may seem like a trifling development, in a city that votes overwhelmingly Democratic it could have a discernible effect on the outcome of the ballot referendum.
St. Paul City Councilman Dave Thune (pictured) and veteran DFL activist Chuck Repke led the opposition to the measure at Saturday’s convention. They passed out fliers with a ballot from Cambridge, Mass., which utilizes IRV, featuring 19 candidates for a city council post.
“Anyone who could look at that and not think that the average voter is going to find that totally frustrating is totally out of touch with the average voter in the City of St. Paul,” Repke said.
On another flier distributed by IRV opponents: mucked-up ballots from the contest between Al Franken and Norm Coleman. During the Senate recount, goofy ballots such as one endorsing “flying spaghetti monster” got most of the attention. But much more common were routinely botched ballots in which a voter’s intent simply couldn’t be discerned because of unusual markings.
Thune believes IRV would only compound such problems and disenfranchise voters. “While this may seem like a wonderful thing in Cambridge for a bunch of Harvard professors, we’ve got a general population that has trouble filling out one oval in a Coleman-Franken race,” he says.
What’s more, Thune argues that certain populations of voters, such as the disabled, immigrants whose first language isn’t English, the elderly –”all the people that supposedly as Democrats and liberals we’re bound to protect,” he notes–would be disproportionately affected by a more complex balloting system.
But former City Councilman Jay Benanav, who spoke in support of the measure at the convention, said the Cambridge analogy is misleading because City Council elections there are citywide. “We don’t have that here,” he says. “It’s by wards. You won’t have to rank 19 people.”
He also argues that there’s no proof that IRV has disenfranchised voters in cities where it has been adopted. “Every place it’s been tested it’s just never been a problem,” he said.
This doesn’t mean that IRV is dead in St. Paul. More than 7,000 residents petitioned the City Council last year to place the issue on the ballot in November. But under advice from the city attorney, the Council voted to table the issue until the courts ruled on whether such a balloting system is constitutional. In January, Hennepin District Court Judge George McGunnigle ruled that the system passed constitutional muster. While the issue is likely to be appealed to the Minnesota Supreme Court, it probably won’t keep the St. Paul City Council from authorizing the IRV measure to be on the ballot in November.
Benanav argues that not garnering sufficient support to get the measure on the DFL’s sample ballot is only a minor setback. “Would it be nice to have it? Of course it would,” he said. “Is it a critical or fatal flaw? Absolutely not.”













30 Comments »
Comment posted March 23, 2009 @ 5:42 pm
Sounds like Thune and Repke know their base very well. Barely literate, mouth breathing morons keep the DFL in power, anything that causes them to have to think is just going to convince them to stay home and watch Beavis and Butthead reruns.
Pingback posted March 23, 2009 @ 6:17 pm
[...] MN: DFL delegates deal blow to instant-runoff voting http://minnesotaindepend…to-instant-runoff-voting [...]
Comment posted March 23, 2009 @ 7:56 pm
Seems like Thune and Repke know their base very well. People who are able to make clear decisions, people who understand fairness in both practice and policy, and people whose preferred morning drink is probably not IRV-flavored KoolAid. They made the case for good sense and they prevailed.
Comment posted March 23, 2009 @ 8:09 pm
Mouth breathing…barely literate. Sounds like Dubya
Comment posted March 23, 2009 @ 9:45 pm
Hi. This is good news.
To learn more about all the problems that IRV would cause, visit ElectionMathematics.org. Existing plurality voting method is not perfect, but IRV is far far worse. Almost any other alternative is better.
Comment posted March 23, 2009 @ 11:40 pm
More than 58 percent of DFL delegates at the St. Paul city convention on March 21st voted in support of Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) and adopted IRV as a resolution. The vote nearly reached the 60 percent threshold that would have placed IRV on the DFL sample ballot in the November election.
IRV also has the endorsement of the Minnesota DFL, nearly all St. Paul legislators and a host of local elected and community leaders. At the national level, IRV is supported by President Obama, former Democratic Party Chair Howard Dean and Congressman Keith Ellison.
Opponents to IRV failed in their effort to seek a “no” endorsement for IRV at the convention. Their message that IRV is confusing to voters didn’t hold sway.
For starters, the ballot that the opponents distributed at the convention is in use in Cambridge, Mass., for multi-seat, at-large elections. Voters elect 7 council member and school board members at once and, hence, naturally, there are double or more candidates vying for the several seats. Saint Paul city elections are only single-seat for mayor and council members and there are typically fewer than a half dozen candidates on the primary ballot (which is similar to the number of candidates who would appear on an IRV ballot). The use of the Cambridge demonstration ballot mislead the delegates.
Further, they assert that if voters can’t properly complete a ballot in the current system, how can they complete an IRV ballot? Claims of voter confusion and folly under both the current system and IRV are grossly exaggerated. According to Secretary of State Mark Ritchie, only 50 of the 3 million ballots cast were disputed by judges in the senate race recount – just 50!
Certainly, there are some voters who mismark their ballots and this is true under any voting system but it doesn’t happen often. Spoiled ballot rates are very low in both current plurality elections and IRV elections.
An IRV ballot is easy for voters to fill out and exit polls (link) conducted in cities that use IRV show that voters overwhelmingly understand it (see ballot at http://fairvotemn.org/sites/fairvotemn.org/files/RCV%20Sample%20Ballot_Cary.PDF).
Voters of any age, ethnicity and education level can fill out an IRV ballot.
The recent Burlington IRV election for mayor, voting was nearly error free, with only a single spoiled ballot! More than 80% of voters ranked a second choice, with 82% in the lowest-income wards and 82% in the highest-income wards. The cost? Just 3 cents per voter on voter education.
Similarly, Cary, North Carolina voters elected their mayor using IRV last year. Exit polls showed that almost everyone (96 percent) found IRV easy to understand. In a post election interview, one senior voter said: “It’s very simple. Anyone could do it, even a five year old child.”
These results are not surprising and are similar to those found in San Francisco, Burlington (VT) and Takoma Park (MD).
And contrary to disenfranchising voters, IRV gives voters, especially in traditionally underrepresented communities, greater power with their vote. In San Francisco, one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the country, IRV has effectively increased voter participation in some communities of color by as much as 300 percent by eliminating low- turnout runoffs. Senator Mee Moua and Minneapolis Council member Ralph Remington tell how IRV boosts voting power for communities of color http://fairvotemn.org/node/997.
With effective (but not necessarily costly) voter education and good ballot design, IRV has been very successfully implemented across the country and will be used for the first time in Minneapolis this November. The Saint Paul Better Ballot Campaign looks forward to giving Saint Paul voters the opportunity to vote for IRV this November and making voting in local elections more simple, participatory, open, positive and meaningful.
Jeanne Massey
Executive Director
FairVote MN
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 1:32 am
IRV is supported by MN state DFL. President Obama (and John McCain), the Minneapolis DFL, the DFL Feminist Caucus, the DFL Progressive Caucus, the Steelworkers, Take Action, the Sierra Club and almost 60% of the DFL delegates. That should be a strong measure of support for DFL voters, along with the 7,000 citizens who pushed to put it on the ballot. Conservatives and Republicans (not all) usual oppose IRV because it helps them win with a minority of supportive voters by getting neutral or progressive third parties to split the DFL vote. Mr. Repke essentially argued that seniors, disabled, immigrants, minorities were too dumb to make thoughtful decisions. We all make them every day, and it’s not confusing to rank your favorites — just don’t include the people you won’t accept in your rankings. The claim at the convention that voters had to rank all 19 candidates in Cambridge was pure fantasy and hogwash — or at least some kind of animal manure. You vote for the number you wish to rank. The judge in Mpls reviewed in detail the mathematical arguments cited in Ms. Dopp’s post and found them irrelevant. Interestingly, when the vote went to a second ballot, the opponents didn’t allow even an additional 2-minute discussion — what were they afraid of?
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 3:49 am
Say what? “IRV is far worse than plurality”? Any time more than two candidates run with plurality, you can have a dysfunctional election and undemocratic result. That’s why Robert’s Rules of Order backs the majority principle through IRV and why so many organizational elections have it, including the association of political scientsits and Mensa.
Voters like it too — instantrunoff.com has a lot of info about big wins for it on the ballot and the history of support for it from people like Barack Obama, John McCain and Howard Dean
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 8:11 am
What a deceptive campaign against IRV. The Cambridge, MA election wasn’t for a “city council post” it was for *9* city council posts. 19 candidates for 9 seats isn’t all that many. Plus, in Cambridge all the races are at-large — everyone is elected at once — but St Paul would elect a single city councilor per ward. Just take a glance at the exit polls where IRV has been used — San Francisco (CA), Burlington (VT), Cary (NC) — and you’ll see how much the voters there appreciate it.
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 9:51 am
One quick note: Cambridge does not use IRV, it uses a proportional representation system called choice voting, which they use to elect all of their city councilmembers at the same time.
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 10:53 am
Affiant supports IRV “but for” Interesting Brief
http://www.neopopulism.org/images/stories/mva_litigation%20backgrounder%20_complaint%20of%20dec%2020_.pdf
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 11:50 am
A couple of quick points, former DFL Senate Majority Leader John Hottinger, who never lifted a finger to have IRV be on state wide ballots when he actually had the power to do something about it, (talk about a profile in courage…) insults me because I ask people to look at the Cambridge ballot (vote for 19) and ask yourself if you think it is going to be harder for people to do than the ballots that they currently fill out. And, as Democrat’s to ask themselves if this is hurting or helping the people that we are suppose to represent?
So, the come back on this is to say that I am insulting the poor, the elderly and those with English as a second language by saying that a fill in the oval ballot with 6, 10, and yes 19×19 ovals to select from is somehow something that we “all do everyday” is what is truly pure “fantasy and hogwash” and typical of the kind of cheap insults that the IRV supporters raise anytime anyone objects to this insanity. Sorry John my mother is 83 years old and has never been asked to fill out anything with 361 ovals on it to pick her favorite anything.
As to the race in Cary, North Carolina, help me if I am wrong with this, but didn’t the candidate that won the Mayor’s office campaign on stopping instant run off voting? …and will fulfill that pledge by ending it?
As to exit polls saying that IRV is easy, has anyone been paying attention to the Franken – Coleman hearings? Every person that filled out their absentee ballot wrong swore that they thought they did it correctly. 100% of them. Thousands of uncounted ballots 100% convinced they did it correctly.
Folks, where is this demand for Instant Run Off Coming from and what problem is it hoping to solve? In Saint Paul our Mayor and City Council are elected by a majority vote. Everyone runs in September and the final two face off in November. It is clean clear and always has a 50% +1 winner.
As to Massey’s claim that this will help minority candidates, you have to be kidding me? By doing what? There is no empowerment for minority candidate by making the ballot more complicated.
This thing has one purpose, its an organizing tool for the Green Party. There are some in my party that think that if we give the Green’s IRV that we can then count on them to vote DFL second and that somehow a stronger more organized Green Party is good for us. The goal here is to allow the Greens to vote twice.
Look… I am a Democrat and I don’t care about making the Green Party more electable and nothing in my thrity-something year history of working for the DFL party has ever given me the interest in seeing a bunch of wealthy, well educated, white people get two bites of the apple.
I care about making sure that all people get a fair shot in an election and any ballot that will have some people voting more than others is not a fair vote.
You can insult me all that you want, but the fact remains that it is the wealthy, well educated, well informed people that will rank multiple candidates and the average voter who suffer in the task.
Just My Opinion Not Those Of My Employers Past Present Or Future
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 12:30 pm
The deceptions and outright lies of the anti-IRV camp are astounding.
IRV is easy to understand given two questions: 1-Who do you want to win? 2-In a runoff election, if your candidate was no longer in the race, who do you want to win? Mark your choice for Question 1 in Column 1, Mark your choice for Question 2 in column 2.
If we had had IRV in the Senatorial election, the State would already have its full complement of Senators and saved the expenses and time wasted in the ongoing challenges.
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 1:11 pm
“You can insult me all that you want, but the fact remains that it is the wealthy, well educated, well informed people that will rank multiple candidates and the average voter who suffer in the task.”
Chuck Repke really can’t make it any clearer for you. He’s preventing the idiots that keep St. Paul a democrat ruled slum from inadvertently causing a GOP takeover.
Hey. Maybe if each candidate had his or her own special color, liberal voters could just bring their crayons to the poll!
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 2:32 pm
FYI – the City Council in Cary, NC votes 6-1 to go quit IRV – final vote due next month…
By Kendall Jones, NBC17, 1 week, 4 days ago
Updated: Mar. 14 6:08 pmCARY, N.C. –
After a public hearing and more than half-an-hour of debate, Cary Town Council members decided to re-evaluate the way Cary citizens choose their leaders.
At its Thursday meeting, the Town Council voted to change the voting system to a non-partisan plurality system.
Currently, Cary uses a non-partisan election and runoff to select its leaders.
That means if a candidate does not receive more than 50 percent of the vote, there could be a second, or runoff, election between the top two choices.
Under a non-partisan plurality system, runoff elections are eliminated and the person with the most votes wins.
The council will have a public hearing on the issue in April, but much of the debate Thursday night centered around whether the town should continue to use instant runoff voting (IRV) in future elections.
In IRV, voters choose a first, second and third candidate on a paper ballot.
If a single candidate does not receive more than 50 percent of the “first choice” votes, the top two candidates have an “instant runoff.”
Election officials then add voters’ second and third choices to see which candidate has the most votes.
The Town of Cary participated in a pilot program of IRV in 2007.
Staff members said having one election saved the town $28,000 over having one election and then a separate runoff election.
Multiple Cary citizens spoke in favor of and against IRV, but council members could not decide on whether to continue using the system for the upcoming 2009 elections.
“Until the board of elections has a way of counting those second and third ballots that feels as certain, as familiar and as accurate as counting those first ballots, then we do not need to participate,” Councilwoman Gale Adcock said, adding that she had no problem with the idea of IRV. “They need to fix that.”
Councilman Ervin Portman spoke out in favor of continuing the town’s use of IRV.
Council members said they will continue to investigate the pros and cons of IRV, but decided Thursday to change the election method to a non-partisan plurality by a 6-1 margin, with Councilman Portman voting against the change.
The council will have to make a final decision on the 2009 election method by the end of April.
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 3:08 pm
…and then go and look at some of the data on the Burlington Vt mayor’s race. 8,976 people voted for someone for mayor, but only 8,374 votes were counted in the final round. 600 people (7%) who went to the poll that day did not get a vote that counted.
But it was the Progressive candidate that won the election and the Democrat that finished third, so we should all be happy about that.
In Saint Paul when people vote in the Mayor’s race in November all of the votes will count. That is why a real run off is better than a pretend run off.
JMONTOMEPPOF
Comment posted March 24, 2009 @ 8:58 pm
The problem is that on the local city level, this is a solution in search of a problem! The current system for local government elections has a primary with only the top 2 candidates advancing. This is not a broken system. Now on a state-wide level with multiple parties and candidates in the general election, IRV shows some promise. Why not put in on as a constitutional amendment in 2010?
Comment posted March 25, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
Instant Runoff Voting is associated with LOWER voter turnout in San Francisco California and Takoma Park Maryland, home of Fair Vote Director Rob Richie. (see The activist city that didn’t vote Will there ever be enough candidates in a Takoma Park election triggerInstant Run-off Voting? by Tamra Tomlinson 12/07/2007)
San Francisco’s 2007 IRV mayoral contest had 100,000 fewer voters than did San Francisco’s one on one runoff mayoral contest in 2003. (See http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/turnout.html)
IRV is associated with LACK of racial minority representation.
in Takoma Park Maryland. Takoma Park is 34 percent African-American..” yet “….Takoma Park, in Montgomery County, has no minority representative. ” (See (See Greenbelt mulls changes to its voting system Thursday July 24, 2008 Gazette.net)
IRV is also associated with lack of racial minority representation in Australia, where IRV has been used for decades. The Center for Range Voting advises that: “in the top IRV-using country (Australia) and the top two plurality-using countries (USA & UK) in years 2005-2008. We find, e.g, that there are zero racial-minority IRV seatholders… ”
(See “Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) and racial minorities” http://www.rangevoting.org/IRVraceMinorities.html )
IRV costs significantly more than plurality elections
http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/costs.html
yet IRV in most elections provides a plurality result
http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/majority.html
IRV requires more complex technology to count, because IRV is not additive and cannot be summed up at the polling places.
Comment posted March 26, 2009 @ 6:59 am
“…and then go and look at some of the data on the Burlington Vt mayor’s race. 8,976 people voted for someone for mayor, but only 8,374 votes were counted in the final round. 600 people (7%) who went to the poll that day did not get a vote that counted.”
There were some voters who chose to rank only one candidate, and their vote was not counted in the final round because their candidate of choice was eliminated. It’s basically the same thing as abstaining in a traditional runoff election. Getting 93% of the voters to participate in the final round is pretty good. Compare that to the “real” runoff that Burlington just held to resolve a City Council race. Only 56% of the voters that participated in the first election came back for the runoff. IRV could have ended the race more cheaply and with more voters participating.
“But it was the Progressive candidate that won the election and the Democrat that finished third, so we should all be happy about that.”
Actually I am happy about the Progressive candidate winning. IRv forces the Democrats and Republicans to compete with other parties on their merits instead of using scare tactics about how bad the other major party candidate is.
Comment posted March 26, 2009 @ 7:03 am
“IRV costs significantly more than plurality elections
http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/costs.html
yet IRV in most elections provides a plurality result
http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/majority.html”
In Burlington, IRV elected Bob Kiss when the Republican would have won under plurality.
“IRV requires more complex technology to count, because IRV is not additive and cannot be summed up at the polling places.”
Paper ballots are perfectly compatible with IRV in Australia and Ireland, so the same should be true for America!
Comment posted March 26, 2009 @ 11:03 am
Thanks for enlightening us on the REAL REASON your don’t like it, Dave and DFL…
“While this may seem like a wonderful thing in Cambridge for a bunch of Harvard professors, we’ve got a general population that has trouble filling out one oval in a Coleman-Franken race,””
Funny – there were three top vote-getters in the race. Did you forget Dean Barkley so soon, Dave? The main reason for the current system to keep 3rd parties OUT of politics.
Comment posted March 26, 2009 @ 5:31 pm
In Burlington’s recent IRV election, there was ONE overvote out of nearly 9,000 votes cast! That’s an overvote rate of 0.01%, which is even better than the very good rate of 0.1% achieved in the last IRV election in 2006. So much for voter confusion.
Comment posted March 27, 2009 @ 2:40 pm
I would like to correct some of Ms. Massey’s incorrect statements about IRV in North Carolina:
Jeanne Massey made several incorrect claims about Instant Runoff Voting in Cary, North Carolina in her comment posted March 23, 2009 @ 11:40 pm:
MASSEY: claimed that: “Similarly, Cary, North Carolina voters elected their mayor using IRV last year.
THE TRUTH: Massey’s wrong. There was no mayoral contest last year – 2008, there was no IRV in Cary last year, and the one time Cary used IRV in October 2007, IRV was not used for the mayoral contest.
1. Cary only participated in the IRV experiment in October 2007, and the mayoral contest was not a ranked choice contest.
2. In 2007, there were only 2 candidates for mayor, Ernest F. McAlister (incumbent) and Harold Weinbrecht (ultimately the winner).
http://msweb03.co.wake.nc.us/bordelec/downloads/2007OCT_summary-official.htm
MASSEY: “Exit polls showed that almost everyone (96 percent) found IRV easy to understand.”
THE TRUTH: Massey’s 96% number is wrong. According to an exit poll (arguably tainted since it was conducted by IRV advocates, some who admitted faking a southern accent to influence the dumb hillbillies): 82% agreed IRV was “very easy” to understand. http://news.ncsu.edu/news/2007/10/158-irv-voting-survey.php
*Keep in mind that Cary population is far from the norm:
-Cary has the most Ph.D.s per capita in the U.S. for towns larger than 75,000 people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cary,_North_Carolina#Education
-Cary has one of the highest median household incomes in the state.
- In Cary, nearly 9 in 10 citizens have access to the Internet
-Cary has the highest number of citizens with advanced degrees and per capita income in the entire state of NC, with the majority of voters being internet connected as well.
http://www.townofcary.org/aboutcary/
MASSEY: says that “In a post election interview, one senior voter said: ‘It’s very simple. Anyone could do it, even a five year old child.’”
TRUTH: Doesn’t that sound like the rational used for literacy tests?
CARY REJECTED A 2ND IRV EXPERIMENT. March 12, 2009 Cary North Carolina turned down second bite of Instant Runoff Voting Pilot, process still too flawed The City Council chose plurality by a vote of 6-1 instead, citing problems with IRV and noting that the one IRV election they had produced a plurality winner, not a majority winner.
http://irvbad4nc.blogspot.com/2009/03/instant-runoff-voting-pilot-remains.html
Comment posted March 27, 2009 @ 3:05 pm
Jeanne Massey is not correct when she made this claim:
Similarly, Cary, North Carolina voters elected their mayor using IRV last year. Exit polls showed that almost everyone (96 percent) found IRV easy to understand. In a post election interview, one senior voter said: “It’s very simple. Anyone could do it, even a five year old child.”
Cary did not election a mayor using IRV last year. They elected one District B council person in 2007, and he did not get a majority of the first round ballots needed to win. Our county Board of Election – one of the best in the state – couldn’t even follow the so-called simple written hand-tabulation procedures. They made several errors that were caught by the observers – two of whom are on the Cary Town Council now. They have no confidence in the method, and therefore Cary will more likely than not use IRV in 2009 or anytime in the future.
Furthermore, more reliable exit polls conducted by a professional un-biased polling firm (not FairVote, DemocracyNC or other pro-IRV groups) found that about 1/3 of Cary residents didn’t understand IRV, with 11% having no opinion on the matter. When you combine that with the 25% who showed up on election day not knowing they would be expected to rank their votes (and therefore not being able to fully participate in the election), IRV is not a a good fit here in North Carolina – or elsewhere!
Comment posted March 27, 2009 @ 3:08 pm
And in Burlington VT, it turns out that very few people actually went beyond the 1st and 2nd column votes as reported in the local press
:
> > • Of the 8,980 people who voted in the election, 16.5 percent “bullet
> > voted,” meaning they stopped filling out their mayoral ballot after
> > making their first-choice selection. A total of 37.8 percent of voters
> > chose not to make a selection in what turned out to be the critical
> > third-choice round of voting.
So much for the claims that IRV is easy to understand. And Bob Kiss was declared the winner with less than 50% plus one vote of the total of first column votes cast. IRV does not ensure a majority winner in one election instead of two.
Comment posted March 27, 2009 @ 9:00 pm
“> > • Of the 8,980 people who voted in the election, 16.5 percent “bullet
> > voted,” meaning they stopped filling out their mayoral ballot after
> > making their first-choice selection. A total of 37.8 percent of voters
> > chose not to make a selection in what turned out to be the critical
> > third-choice round of voting.
So much for the claims that IRV is easy to understand.”
I’m tired of the defenders of the two-party system telling us that we’re too stupid to rank choices; the Australians and Irish are smart enough to do it. Voters can bullet vote because they do not like the other candidates enough to rank them. It does not mean that they did not understand IRV. Again, the overvote rate in the Burlington election was 0.01%. That’s as good as it gets.
Again, 93% of the voters ranked enough choices to participate in the final round. Compare that with the “real” runoff election for Burlington City Council Ward 7, where only 56% as many voters bothered to vote as in the first election.
“And Bob Kiss was declared the winner with less than 50% plus one vote of the total of first column votes cast. IRV does not ensure a majority winner in one election instead of two.”
Abstentions are not included in the calculation of a majority, otherwise the runoff election for City Council in Ward 7 would actually have been further from a majority winner than the first round.
Comment posted March 30, 2009 @ 3:16 am
First of all, IRV HURTS third parties, not helps them. Because of the math of IRV, the powerful parties STAY in power, and the weaker parties STAY weak.
Do you folks realize that in Australia, there are two dominant parties thanks to IRV? In Ireland, there is one dominant party (with IRV).
See Australian Politics – the “Disadvantages of the Preferential [IRV] System”… promotes a two-party system to the detriment of minor parties and independents. http://australianpolitics.com/elections/features/preferential.shtml
As for Australia using a paper ballot, yes they do, and their ballots are extremely simple, unlike ballots used in the US. There’s usually one item only on the ballot paper.
Tell me, does this Australian ballot look anything like what you would see at your polling place?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australian_Senate_Ballot_Paper.gif
Australia had one IRV election that took a month to count these simple paper ballots:
In Australia’s 24 November 2007 elections, the Election Commission was unable to determine the composition of parliament until over 1 month later because of numerous races which were difficult for them to count.
http://rangevoting.org/IrvNonAdd.html
IRV does discriminate against some voters, and that isn’t calling voters stupid. However, a Grand Jury in San Francisco reported that voters and poll workers had trouble understanding IRV and that more voter education would have to be provided. Consider that San Fran already spends about $1.84 per registered voter just on education!
July 3, 08 San Francisco Grand Jury Report: poll workers and voters do not understand instant runoff, voting machines not yet certified….
http://instantrunoff.blogspot.com/2008/07/instant-runoff-not-understood-by-voters.html
Then there was that Municipal election in San Francisco in 2007. See electionline’s report:
Ranked-Choice Voting and Flawed Ballots Tax San Francisco’s Election By Kat Zambon electionline.org Nov 08, 2007 …”Voters also questioned the value of ranked-choice voting…There are a lot of people who only mark one [candidate] or the same person three times..”I don’t want to vote for a second one, I want this one.”
http://www.votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2639&Itemid=113
If the goal was to help third parties, then there are several other voting methods that actually do help weaker parties gain strength.
There are other methods such as approval, range, or even Fusion which is used in some states now. Maybe better ballot access plus public campaign financing would do more for third parties than shuffling the deck over and over.
Comment posted March 30, 2009 @ 3:23 am
As for Ireland: “so far every Irish president has been from one of two parties. In fact they have all been from just one party (Fianna Fail) except for Mary Robinson. The fact that she was able to win without the support of Fianna Fail for the only time in Irish history, was a single-time aberration perhaps related to her worldwide fame (e.g. she won the Nobel Peace Prize), the fact the FF candidate was linked to scandals, and the unusual absence of a credible contender from the Fine Gael party.”
reference http://rangevoting.org/Ireland2002.html
Comment posted March 31, 2009 @ 7:39 am
“Australia had one IRV election that took a month to count these simple paper ballots:
In Australia’s 24 November 2007 elections, the Election Commission was unable to determine the composition of parliament until over 1 month later because of numerous races which were difficult for them to count.
http://rangevoting.org/IrvNonAdd.html”
This happens under plurality, too. I’m sure you’re familiar with Bush-Gore and Franken-Coleman.
“IRV does discriminate against some voters, and that isn’t calling voters stupid. However, a Grand Jury in San Francisco reported that voters and poll workers had trouble understanding IRV and that more voter education would have to be provided. Consider that San Fran already spends about $1.84 per registered voter just on education!”
But it still saves money on runoffs, and no, it doesn’t discriminate against some voters. Lower income and minority voters were just as likely to rank preferences in San Francisco and Burlington.
“First of all, IRV HURTS third parties, not helps them. Because of the math of IRV, the powerful parties STAY in power, and the weaker parties STAY weak.”
IRV is better for third parties than plurality or top-two runoff.
Comment posted March 31, 2009 @ 11:16 pm
Sadly, supporters of IRV cannot provide any documenation or facts to support their claims.
IRV has been used long enough in places like San Francisco (Since 2004) and Australia (decades) that IRV advocates should be able to back up their claims on what IRV does.
See factual studies, news articles, reports, fiscal analysis etc at
http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/
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