Lutheran groups spar over inclusion of gay pastors

  Very intresting article. I agree with Pastor Chilstrom, both in the fact that the Lord continues to talk to us, and having a gay son, I certainly hope and pray that the proposal passes and our Church makes a giant step for us. It has been very sad for me to watch my son, who was raised in the Church, and had a deep faith as a young boy, turn from God and His teachings and grace, because of the Church branding him as a sinner. I believe we are all sinners and Jesus died on the Cross to save us from our sins and he forgives us. We are not to judge lest we be judged. Louann

So we can’t call people sinners for fear they’ll flee the Church? I guess someone should have told Jesus that when he went around telling everyone how sinful they were.

Your son’s turn from God didn’t begin because the Church “branded him a sinner.” It began long before that, evidenced by his choice to live a homosexual lifestyle rather than walk with God.

This has been nothing less than a gay conspiracy lead by Chilstrom dating back to the formation of the ELCA and if those of us had known there was a secret gay agenda like the LCMS figured out before the vote to merge was taken, we would have never voted to give up our conservative church synod. You cannot be a Lutheran and be gay or homosexual. Martin Luther held that marriage was a union between a man and a woman for the purpose of not fornicating and having offspring. Case closed. End of story. Blow off the Bible, if you want, but you cannot have a gay Lutheran church as it is not Luther.

[...] Via Minnesota Independent [...]

I am Louann Paulson’s son who happens to be gay. Contrary to what some people might say here, sexual orientation is not a choice. I was raised Lutheran. I went through a time that led me to become the rational humanist that I am today. I left the Church because of this, not necessarily because I am gay. I continue to be deeply spiritual, caring for other people – unlike a lot of churchgoers and other fundamentalists who continue to wage physical and spiritual violence against others contrary to Jesus’ teachings.

Lane, your sin is not an issue in this matter. God tells us to hate sin, not the sinner.

The issue is you (nor anybody else) should never try to change a church or the word of God to accomodate the sin (Revelations).

Trying to pervert the word of God to fit ones sin is indeed a worse sin than the original sin itself…. in other words, it is better to be gay and sit quietly in the pew and pray for yourself than to work to overthrow the church and preach acceptance of your sin from the pulpit to feel good about yourself.

Anybody that does not realize there are degrees of sin is a fool… look at the Ten Commandments.

I will pray for you Lane.

Mark, you bore me already. That catchy cliche “love the sinner, hate the sin” is found nowhere in the Bible. Instead of praying for me, why not seek out your lost humanity? I wish you well.

[...] Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is gathering to decide whether openly gay pastors in committed relationships can lead church [...]

Lance,

Two things that are found in the Bible are, “A man should not lay with a man as he lays with a woman.”, as well as, “Go forward, be fruitful and multiply.” The Word is never boring when you dig deep into it.

Mark, you mentioned the issue which is best framed by Chilstrom in the article – which is whether or not the Church will evolve to become a more welcoming, inclusive place that reflect the diversity of God’s people including LGBT. I re-iterate that sexual orientation is but another innate trait of a person; one does not choose to be homosexual anymore than one can choose to be heterosexual. I admonish you not to try using selected verses to justify your anti-gay stance given you are not also following all other such verses laying out lifestyle rules. But then, what do you care about what I have to say because as I said earlier, you are probably lacking the humanity needed to reach out to others like me. Perhaps that is why you find refuge in the Bible which is but a collection of stories written by different men thousands of years ago. That’s sad especially when God is everywhere all around you … Again, I wish you well.

Rob, shame on you.

Lane,

The Bible warns us of following those who try to color wrong as right. The Bible is bigger than any religion including Lutheranism. There are recovered homosexuals who have fully turned their lives over to God. The ELCA has neglected to reconginze them. Two things that were abscent in the ELCA sexuality “study” was any mention of the Bible that forbids homosexuality and any mention of recovered homosexuals. The study itself was a farce. Of the 13 members on that study committee, none of them would identify themselves as to whether they were homosexual or hetrosexual. This is important. The “study” showed a bias that makes it worthless as “study”. I will continue to pray for you but I will also leave you with a very deep question. Lane, how would you feel right now if your mother had been a homosexual?

Mark, you are a moron. What kind of question is that? Unlike you, my mother is a good person; I would still love her. Though you have shown great disrespect towards me, I have too much respect to ask you the same “deep” question: Mark, how would you feel right now if your mother had been a homosexual? Sheesh. Good day!

Lane,

This is conclusive proof that homosexuality is wrong and homosexuals are not clear thinking people. It was a joke. Like the joke my pastor recently told, “Do you think Adam and Eve had belly buttons?” You people lack humor because you are so unhappy. If your mother was a homosexual, you would not be here. Get it? LOL!

If you can debate me like this, thank your HETROSEXUAL parents.

I think my work is done here now.

Not to be as rude to you as you were to me in all of this discussion but who the h**l says, “Sheesh” any more?

Praise be to God that Mark’s work here, such as it is, is done! Sheesh.

You are against gay or LGBT as well as you are against sisters or brothers in Christ or God.

SHEESH!

Sheesh!!!!!!

Thank you Lane for the praise. It is much appreciated. May God continue to offer His blessings down to you and your mother as well.

I think we have established in this BLOG that I have left my mark and nobody, but nobody, should ever be tempted to go down the lane of homosexuality.

Amen.

Sheesh! It’s easy to be a hater when you aren’t directly connected to somebody involved. It’s easy to be a hater when you’ve never been faced with the challenges of accepting who you really are and praying that you’re not ousted from your family and society because of it. You need to thank your God that you born a perfectly normal human being and I’ll stick with my humane God who loves those he made in the way that he made them. Please take the time to step out of your nice, safe little world and step into someone else’s shoes. If a majority of the “good Christians” these days were put under the glass we would all see that they’re all covering up for a multitude of faults (and probably a lot of sins) and are some of the MOST judgmental people I have ever met. Disgusts me. Please spend more time focusing on improving yourself instead of pointing out everyone else’s faults. And if you say you’re perfect then you’re a liar, too.

In closing, “sheesh” is a fantastic work and people should use it more often.

Sheesh

It is very sad to see unbelievers speaking about the Bible when they have no real knowledge of God’s Word. They don’t know what they speak of, coming across to students of the Bible as more or less foolish in their words and decisions. Thank God we still can choose what to believe in this country and so we are each responsible for the choices we make. What kind of person attacks the “person” instead of debating wisely an “issue”? Wouldn’t it be for the benefit of all to discuss issues respectfully and maybe learn something rather than using words as knives? Another thought; churches were formed based upon mutual beliefs. That is still a freedom. If the homosexuals want to be church leaders let them form their own church where similar people believe the same. Let those who believe that the Holy Word of God is to be followed, not excluding for convenience, form their own church. One more thought; If it looks like a rose, and smells like a rose, why are we afraid to call it a rose?

Whoa. I don’t get the “far right”. I respect that you have your views but in this day and age of hatred and unrest…why continue the march against what has been around for thousands of years?

I am 100% heterosexual, but have multiple friends who are either gay or lesbian. As Lane has explained – it is not a choice. Nor is it wrong or “sinful”. (Good grief – I laugh at that word. Some of you need to read the Gnostic Gospel. Jesus was far from perfect.)

I still, to this day, at 50 – do not understand the close-mindedness of those who sit on the opposite end of the spectrum. i.e., Mark & Rob. The bible was “written” by a bunch of men. I fully respect the historical aspect of it AND I respect those of you who follow it word for word. Good for you.

But come on now – are you not supposed to love your fellow man? Or woman? Why does a church turn away a good person who loves, as said by Chilstrom, “the saviour as much as he or the next person. Gay, Lesbian, Straight, Black, White, …what have you it shouldn’t matter. You all share the same love and are on a common path.

Lane – I truly wish you the very best in the outcome of this vote. I have someone dear to my heart that is also hoping for the tables to turn.

Blessings -
Shiloh

To “Observer”

How does anyone truly know Gods words unless spoken directly to? Gods words have been interpreted and re-interpreted over time. Kind of like that old game of “telephone”. Start with a saying and by the time it gets around to the last person in the group it is often far from the original wording.

Also why are you speaking of something you know nothing about? You apparently have a little knowledge on the subject of homosexuality.

I appreciate your thoughts on what I wrote. My understanding is churches were formed in this country for people with common beliefs; and the freedom to express them without pressure from those that differed (church of England). That doesn’t mean anyone hates anyone. The churches I remember didn’t hate anyone. But now there is all this anger from people who are of different beliefs wanting to join churches with different beliefs. Why would they want to do that? Why do we all have to eat vanilla ice cream? If Bob likes football and wants to play football, let him. Why does the basketball team have to let him play football in their basketball game? This isn’t complicated. So many institutions in this country are being turned into homogeny. We can’t please everyone. Just convince me we should all eat vanilla ice cream. For the good of the whole? Isn’t there a name for that????

Shiloh, there we go, attacking the person, me, about knowing nothing about homosexuality and God’s word. This isn’t about me, this is about churches changing ancient traditions that millions of people for thousands of years loved and found peace in. Why not just start a different church that represents those different beliefs? My pappy use to say, if you don’t like the rules, start your own club! Let’s not change the subject or try psychological tricks geared towards attacking below the belt and arousing personal emotion to change the subject. We can be mature adults on this forum. Engaging in informed discourse can benefit many; isn’t that a better way?

[...] Lutherans to debate gay pastor issue Just passing on some news this morning: Chatter out there in religion land is the upcoming assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America in Minneapolis on Aug. 17. Like the Episcopalians before them, the ELCA is battling a division in its ranks over whether openly gay pastors in committed relationships can lead congregations. A good article on the issue can be found here. [...]

Observer – Apologies. I wasn’t “attacking” you. I was just pointing out that you seem to be commenting on “gods words” (which personally I never have heard except for in written scripture…”he” has never spoken to me directly that I could audibly hear)…but yet I didn’t see any inclination that you understand homosexuality.

Also something that has been around as long as the “ancient” churches. It isn’t an abhorration. It is more genetic than anything.

But again, why can’t people learn to accept? We have enough going on in the world today. As those delightful bumperstickers say “COEXIST”. Maybe there will be another branch that comes out of this vote. It won’t be the first time. Isn’t that what Martin Luther actually did.

Peace -
Shiloh

Judgmental people?

I had a gay man in my wedding party in 1976 as one of my four groomsmen so THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST ME, pal!

I have had gay friends and gay students. The differene between them and some today is they did not try to pass their lifestyle off as normal… they knew they were sexual deviants practicing a lifestyle outside of the realm of normalcy and the Bible. The biggest joke is “gay” people are some of the most angry and intolerant people on the face of the earth. They should not be called “gays” but rather “grumps”. Just page up and read Lane’s words next to mine.

Lane and those like him should start their own church of “Humanitarianism” rather than try to descirate the years of tradition of Lutheranism. By his own admission he is more interested in being a “humanitarian” rather than a Lutheran.

Conservative Mark, I’m afraid you appear to be speaking out your rear end.

You’re so funny. The conclusion you arrive at as to why gay people were not more vocal in the past is, well, let’s just say I’m embarrassed for you. It’s like saying blacks didn’t object to slavery more vocally and frequently earlier on because in the 1700s they had the good sense to know they deserved it.

As a gay man, let me educate you a bit (since you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about). The modern gay rights movement began in earnest in 1968 with the Stonewall riots in NYC. It gained momentum, and over time more and more gay people came to realize they no longer had to accept the bigotry of, frankly, people like you.

The 1980s brought more mainstream media and pop culture coverage. There is safety in numbers, as they say, so still more gay people decided to stop trying to appease people like you by living a lie or living in the shadows in shame.

The fight continues.

It will end when gay Americans are treated exactly the same as straight Americans, like the constitution promises.

Dale, please read what you just wrote. Doesn’t it sound like you are attacking someone? Do you think he or anyone else will listen when you have just cut him to pieces with your personal criticism? Did you read the anger in your words? Can we have an objective discussion without making it personal for more than 20 minutes? Are we no wiser than animals? After all, we have souls and intelligence….hello???? Where is the intelligent discourse here? If we can’t have it in an open, secure forum, how can we expect a group in a public meeting to maintain respect and communicate above the personal level???? So where are we at the end of all this? What have we achieved here?

Observer: I agree that respectful, civil debate is best. However, may I ask you to please imagine what you would feel like if you lived every single day of your life being the best person–the best child, sibling, worker, friend, student, the best everything–you could possibly be, only to have certain peers call you deviant, evil, sick, and so on while they deny you civil equality? Honestly, how would you feel?

Then on top of that, when you stand up for yourself in a kind and respectful way those same people trample right over your kindness and stick to their guns. How would you feel?

If you can’t imagine that a little anger is not only understandable but appropriate, then I can only guess you have never been on the receiving end of the kind of basic, systematic, and constant discrimination gay people have.

P.S., while my words may have been angry they were also honest and truthful, which I would hope counts for something here.

Thank you for saying that in a thoughtful, meaningful, decent and respectful manner! I can hear you now!!! I can only try to imagine how that would feel. It would be just awful! I would probably, I’m guessing here; shame? The behavior we are talking about is unnatural and not the majority. I would probably try to change to fit in?

You don’t know me: I’m handicapped. I deal with the cruelty of people I work with every day, and the customers I come in contact with too. I deal with it in every transaction of “normal” life. It is difficult to say the least. Is it fair? No. Do I try to educate people? Sometimes; but do you think they will give it deep consideration? Do I get angry with them? No. Am I angry? What do you think? It would be a lot easier if I lived in a community of people like myself than in the “normal” community. I don’t expect people to turn into pretzels maneuvering to accomodate my handicap. It is my burden; I did not choose this. I can not change it even if I wanted to. I consider it my burden to bear and I will bear it with grace and quiet acceptance taking full responsibility for my burden without asking others to change who they are or saying my burden is more important than theirs is. We are all in this together. Sink or swim. I want to be moved by compassion to change what is right; not by force or anger or law.

To begin with I should state that I am a confessional Lutheran, a member of the LC-MS. The venom spewed by those on both sides of this issue is saddening–especially that coming from those who claim to be committed Christians.

It is amazing to me how supposed “Christians” can speak in such ways as to say that God loves us all because he made us–as if God’s love for us is such that he overlooks our sins. Remember that our faith teaches us that we are born sinful. Our inclinations are ever self-seeking and never motivated by a godly love for our neighbor. While I do not believe that homosexuals are born with the homosexual inclination, I also do not believe that they choose that inclination like some have seemed to suggest. It, like most things, comes from complicated environmental factors that is exacerbated by our sinful nature and inclinations (concupicense).

The Bible speaks very clearly about homosexual behavior (regardless of what those on the other side of this issue try to claim) as well as other sins. Jesus came into the world to deliver us from our sins–not to gloss over them. How many times in scripture did Jesus tell someone after absolving them to “go and sin no more”? That necessarily implies a change in behavior. Jesus suffered so sin could be defeated and those that suffer under sins weight should unite their suffering to his suffering. Yes, Jesus loves the homosexual as well as the thief, the murder, the child abuser, the rapist–he death on the cross is proof of that. But to suggest that Jesus’ death was so that those he loves should continue in their sin is a bastardization of what his death and resurrection means, of the faith that has been handed down to us through the centuries, and what is taught in sacred scripture. Truth either offends or it sets free. My prayer is that it will set all of us free.

Observer – when I first realized I was gay (around age 14 or so) I went through all kinds of stages. Shame, denial, hoping it would turn out to be something everyone felt for a short time and then it goes away, and anger that god could make me gay in a world where I would be treated badly for it.

I tried to fit in by dating girls. I lied a lot, so no one would figure out I was gay. I spent a lot of time hiding who I was, to appease others, and then another chunk of time stressing out about it, leaving me not much time to just plain grow up and be a productive member of society.

Eventually, I found the strength to accept that I am who I am, and if someone else has a problem because they don’t understand, well that is their problem not mine. I would never choose to be gay. Who would? It would be crazy to invite the kind of scorn gay people get. But I would also never choose to sweep the truth under the rug when I know better.

The only choice involved is whether to face it honestly or lie about it. That is a choice. I chose to face it honestly. Once that choice is made, there is no more shame, no more having to accept second class treatment.

I feel sorry for the gay people who choose to live a lie and deny their sexual orientation. They never know what it’s like to live in true love with someone heart and soul. They never know what it’s like to stop worrying that someone will discover their secret. And their poor spouses never feel what it’s like to be loved by someone who is straight. Not to mention the “hollow” example of love it sets for their children.

But I do need to point out: for gay people being gay is natural. It’s as natural for us as being heterosexual is for those who are. It’s a minority situation, yes, but that doesn’t make it unnatural. Left-handers are not the “norm” either, but there’s nothing “wrong” with them.

Anyway, thanks for sharing something of youself too.

Mark wrote:
“The Bible speaks very clearly about homosexual behavior…”

No, I don’t think it does. Please elaborate. And if you dare to use ammo from the Old Testament I’ll bring back 100 other things from the OT that I guarantee you overlook as inapplicable.

Do you have any idea how insulting it is to have you compare me in your reasoning with, “thief, the murder, the child abuser”? What a horrible thing to say, and what a horrible custodian you are of your faith to use it as a weapon like that.

I think you don’t understand homosexuality, and probably have some feelings of repulsion about it, and so rather than enlighten yourself you cling to the false notion that the Powers Almighty back you up in classifying gays as less than you. Shame on you.

On the other hand, institutions that support my assertion that there is nothing wrong or bad about being gay include the: American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, World Health Organization, American Academy of Pediatrics, Child Welfare League of America, American Bar Association, National Association of Social Workers, North American Council on Adoptable Children, American Psychoanalytic Association, American Academy of Family Physicians, American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, Council on Child and Adolescent Health, American Association of Pastoral Counselors, American Law Institute, American Bar Association, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, National Education Association, not to mention countless universities, local governments, and human rights organizations.

I think these trump your 2,000 year old, out of context, multi-translated notions about gay people.

Hi Dale…

Romans 1:26-27.

I think you’re confusing my analogy somewhat. There are certain behaviors that scripture teaches as contrary to what God intends for us (again, all are born sinful with sinful inclinations). You are right in that I don’t understand homosexuality because I’m not homosexual. You are right in that I do find the behavior repulsive. Other things I also find repulsive include lying, humiliating others, spousal and child abuse, etc. But you are not honing in on the argument–you’re attack is ad hominem.

Also, I never classified homosexuals as less than me. Re-read the entire post. You assume that because I find homosexual behavior intrinsically sinful that that means I find the homosexual less of a person. That’s a very unfair attack to level.

There are many more organization’s that find nothing wrong with homosexual behavior than those you listed. But our ultimate fates do not rest with the ABA or the AMA. I place my faith in God. He have forgiven me all my sins (which by the way were and are very many) and he can forgive you yours as well.

One more thing to consider (and the argument I offer here is not to inflame but to get you thinking from a purely rationalistic point of view): If homosexual behavior is inate (or genetic) and we are nothing more than products of evolutionary biology, wouldn’t homosexual behavior then be an undesirable trait that nature is trying to rid from the gene pool? After all, isn’t the purpose of all species procreation?

Dale,

I think we have to agree what we have here is a queer situation.

Many gays are too ignorant to understand 911 happened because the Islamic Fundamentalists (and most of the world) agree that homosexuality is a sin. That is why they call us “Western Satans”. They are also against Internet porn, gambling, substance abuse, and a whole variety of other things against the Koran and, HEY, GUESS WHAT, the Bible, too!

I have two children in the military fighting this war and I pray to God they are not fighting for a cause against God or we are sure to lose and I am sure to lose one of both of them.

In Iran and Iraq they hang known homosexuals from construction cranes. You can go on the Internet and see the pictures for yourself.

There has to be some middle ground between this gay pride movement and Islam or this war will never end…. not in my lifetime.

Wrong is wrong and the more you boast about it and make a general ass out of yourselves, the more you endanger all of us and our way of life.

At the time the constitution was written, you would have been put in prison… for life… alone without a cell mate.

You people cannot even argue without sounding foolish. Homosexuality was illegal in every state of the union when I was born. Have we come a long way or have we sold out our souls to the devil in the name of “freedom of expression”?

Wow, this is really good communication because we are expressing thoughts on a subject! I appreciate this! I’m sure others do too! I think we are making progress in understanding each other!

So, can anyone tell me why the homosexual community, which is welcome in our church pews by the way, has to force their beliefs upon a private church by being given the leadership of a church that calls homosexuality sin? Why don’t they just start their own churches? What am I missing here?

Mark in Cincy, very well stated.

The reality is this: we are living in the days scripture teaches us about: where many are calling evil “good” and good, “evil”. See also II Tim. 3 and 4. God’s Word IS very clear concerning His standards regarding sexuality. Sex was created for 1 man and 1 woman for life(in a marriage). All relations outside this one ordained relationship are sinful (fornication, homosexuality, adultery). Many hetero Christians like to continually point the finger at those practicing homosexuality as the ones who have/are injuring “traditional” marriage/family. However, we (the hetero) must in reality point the finger at ourselves. We FIRST departed from God’s ways when we chucked lifelong marriage out the window and started practicing “legalized” adultery (remarriage) while one still had a living spouse. The truth si: the “hetero” church are nothing but husband/wife swappers—people giving and taking other’s spouses.

If we REALLY care about God’s Word and righting wrongs, then we will acknowledge that we too (corporately) refuse to depart from our sins (we remain in the relationships Jesus and Paul BOTH taught were adultery (remarriage)), yet we call homosexuals from their sins—teaching them that they have to quit their sexual relationships that are biblically prohibited, but we can keep those husbands/wives that God says do not belong to us? We (the hetero) are hypocrits.

Until we clean up our own act and depart from those relationships GOD says are sin (adultery), then we have no right to speak out against others who too are involved in sexual sin. It is not that we are not to Judge, for Paul teaches us that we ARE to judge—those WITHIN, but we are to first judge ourselves. Jesus teaches us that we cannot pull a SPECK(homosexuality) out of our brother’s eye when we have a PLANK(adultery) in our own. Just my two cents. Blessings to all who seek Him and seek to do His will over their own will.

By the way, I knew we could all get along today! You’re all invited to my house for dinner tonite!

Hotdish potluck, I presume?

Mustn’t forget ham and scalloped potatoes and jello, too!

Well, I truly love everyone and it breaks my heart that the Muslim community thinks they have the right to kill others who they view as sinners. As I grow older I get deeper. Three deep thoughts have become crystal clear to me in my recent years (after watching the gay agenda here at home and watching gays get stoned to death and hung in the Middle East via Internet videos).

1. God gives us life so only He has the right to take it away and I am addressing the Muslim community and the abortionists all over the world.

2. If there is no homosexual agenda, they should indeed want, and desire, their own church, with their own values, rather than to try to change every known religion on the face of the earth to conform to their ways. I suspect the Catholics and non-denominational (private) churches will be the only ones left truly following the Bible in the end. Homosexuals will be welcome to attend and that will be about it.

3. What comes next? A church for pedophiles or necrophilians or those into bestiality or porn or what? Where do we draw the line? Wife swappers? Alcoholics? When do we (as a group) say, “Enough is enough already!”?

It seems to me we are on a very slippery slope. We all have our own form of sin we are proud of. For me it is my Scotch. Having confessed that, I will also say I am not a big enough narcissistic dumb ass to expect my pastor to serve it to me at the alter rail for communion!

Oh and to answer your question, Observer, why not let the Church evolve? We’ve got way too many churches as it is. And oh yeah, the minister isn’t always right. I would LOVE to see an occasional SHEESH outburst at some asinine pronouncement from the pulpit; yep, that’s what we need! I remember struggling so hard not to burst out laughing at the pastor shouting fire and brimestone years and years ago … but I do miss hearing the hymns sung with such gusto and from the heart by the old Swedes who refuse to follow the organist’s futile pounding on the organ … and I am Deaf.

Mark in Cincy, for starters all your religious talk is meaningless to me. I outgrew religion a long time ago. I’m now a proud nonbeliever, so why should any kind of public policy that I must live by be rationalized with your supernatural belief system? Wouldn’t that be like a Hindu or Muslim or a Branch Davidian cult member forcing you to live by their beliefs? I place my faith in science, logic, fact and reason.

I read your entire post the first time. You can’t very well say you don’t classify gay people as less than you, then in the next sentence go on about them being “sinners” merely by virtue of who they are–when gay people themselves do not believe they are anything wrong. That’s like me saying, “Mark you are a bad person because you are named Mark, and because you don’t repent and change your name you are going to hell with the murderers.” Please.

You let your religious belief cloud your common sense. Churches fought like crazy against the “evil” notions that the world was round and not flat. We know how that turned out. Churches can be wrong, and the time in history has come for it to come to light that any church to condemn gay people is wrong.

Murder, rape, lies, theft–they all have a victim. That is why they are crimes and/or sins. Homosexuality is nothing more than a natural variance. No victim. No crime. No problem, except the one you create when you condemn gay people for no reason. It’s like the religions that condemn dancing. Most of us are advanced enough to know that is nonsense too.

Your comment on evolution is interesting, but where I think it falls apart is: no one ever said the sole purpose of human life is procreation. If it were, we would actively discriminate against or exterminate those who are sterile, born with certain birth defects, etc. Besides, I hardly see the world as in danger of human extinction. In fact, if there were a god perhaps homosexuality would be his “throttle” to control population. How can we know? What I do know is gay people who never chose it should not be treated differently in civil society, yet we are.

Conservative Mark: what??

What are you talking about? “911 happened because the Islamic Fundamentalists agree that homosexuality is a sin”?? Have you lost your mind?

Give me one reason (not based in your supernatural belief system) that there is anything wrong with gay people.

You seem to think that because something used to be a certain way, that is the way it should stay. Hmmm…interesting. And I’ll bet in 1865 there were many who said, “Slavery has been around for decades, what makes you think you’re right to end it?” Would that be correct too Mark? As time progresses things change and we stop being ignorant. That’s why slavery is gone and women can vote. On the gay issue, you are clutching on to being ignorant. Time will show that for what it is.

I’m not sure what your obsession with gay people is about Mark, but let me assure you: we are exactly like straight people in every way except we fall in love with people of our same gender. Big deal. Big F-ing deal. Seems the only problem is the one you’re creating.

Observer, you are quite mistaken. By and large gay people don’t want to change any church doctrine. Quite the opposite. Gay people want to be treated as equal in the civil, secular society we share. That’s all. If any gay person doesn’t like church rules, they don’t have to belong to that church.

The trouble is, several churches continue to foist their doctrine into secular society where everyone else must live by it. Not fair.

The Episcopal church is currently in an odd situation, and now this article talks of what’s going on in the Lutheran church. Personally, my only beef with churches condemning gay people is they breed followers who take that belief and build public policy around it. That’s completely unacceptable.

Conservative Mark, I just read your last post. I feel so sorry for you. You harbor these ugly, bigoted thoughts of cruelty toward your fellow American citizens who happen to be gay, who aren’t hurting you or anyone else, who just want the simple equality promised in the constitution, and yet you somehow seem proud of your bigotry. Unbelievable.

Dale,

I have talked to Islamic Muslims post 911 and the only thing that annoys me more than homosexuals trying to push their sin as acceptable in known religions is how stupid the average Americans are about not knowing what this Islamic Jihad (holy war) is truly all about! Duh!

Here is another thing annoying about gay people; Dale? If you are no longer a man of faith, why are you even reading this and posting here? Duh!

So Dale, you like science? New science says homosexuality may be preventable. Science has determined gay men and women are made by an severe imbalance of either estrogen or testosterone in the mother during conception and the three trimesters thereafter. Wow! Sounds like your science has defined homosexuality as a scientific abnormality! Ouch! Would you want the cure if they can provide it? If not, why?

Grow a brain. Get a life. Be gay if you want to be gay but don’t do it on my time and in my church. God and His word means something to me. I am a true believer and I will confront anyone who tries to screw with it.

I don’t flaunt my sexuality in front of you so don’t flaunt yours in front of me! BTW, I am speaking for MOST Americans in this last line. We are tired of it… tired of it in our Hollywood movies…. tired of it in our prime time television shows… and we outright resent it in our churches!

Hi Dale…

My classification above was in the context of “all are sinful”. That is the equal playing field. You, me, everyone on the planet begins in that category (and those who are Christian never quite escape it until death). The difference between our two opinions is that you make a distinction between homosexual behavior, which in your world view isn’t sinful, and the behavior of others (my comment regarding murder, etc) which you do find reprehensible. When you state that I hold the homosexual as less than myself you make a statement that only one omniscent could make–you do not and cannot know everything that is in my heart and mind. Grant me that truth at least.

You are correct when you state that churches can be wrong. But not God. But if the Bible is truly God’s word (as I believe) and if it is truly infallible (as I believe) then some behaviors are sinful. But you don’t accept the conclusion because you don’t accept the premises so I’ll be happy to move from this line of reasoning.

Evolutionary biology is 100% about the propigation of species. Darwin’s theory was alternatively called “survival of the fittest” because in his scheme of life only the strongest (those with better genes) would survive to pass along their genetic makeup. And humans do in fact discriminate in the procreative process. A weekend at a college campus in a frat house can tell you that much. Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood wholeheartedly endorsed the idea of eugenics. The Nazis experimented in it and tried to develop the master race. Evolutionary biology is all about passing along the strong genes and ridding the gene pool of those with traits that are seen as weak. Many mutations are viewed as abberations that are eventually weeded out. The reason such things aren’t carried out in an active way like the Nazis and Sanger wanted is because of the moral law. Evolutionary biology is at complete odds with a moral law because it is incapable of producing anything like it. The fact that there are those of us who abhor how many have been treated thoughout history in the name of religion (not God) is solely attributable to the moral law. Only men, made in the image of a Creator, can see the intrinsic worth of another. So again I state, even from an evolutionary perspective homosexual traits in the species would have to be viewed as a mutation.

If procreation isn’t the point of evolutionary biology then what is?

I guess we will just have to be at an impass because I haven’t the faith to realize a world without a God. You accept no arguments from a theistic position and I accept no arguments that are based in agnosticism or atheism because in the end they are neither factual, logical nor reasonable.

God bless you.

Despite the anger on this page, the for and against sides of this argument are well covered. Yet what is missing is what is at the core of Lutheranism, of Christianity, of faith.
Article IV: Of Justification.
1] Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for 2] Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. 3] This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4. (http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php)

Like any issue that Christ’s church faces, is justification by grace through faith central? Are we looking at the cross, through the cross?

Also, both sides of the argument must understand for this debate that the books of the bible were written by a human living in one specific context for one specific context. Same with the Lutheran Confessions. These words are faded by the necessity of interpretation, but the Word of God, Jesus Christ, is not. When using our sacred texts to support our arguments, make sure that what is being quoted is understood through the context of which it originally belonged, and then how it applies to our totally different context.

Mark in Cincy,

I agree with you.

God doesn’t believe in atheists.

Oh, Conservative Mark … thou art naive! Did you know that the Middle Eastern Islamic extremists intentionally promote homosexual behavior within their ranks purely for the sake of making their soldiers that much more protective of each other? Did you know that when pornographic material is snuck into an American camp who some of the first people to sneak off with it are? Do we need to talk about the Catholic priests who violated their parishioners? HYPOCRITES!!! I believe in God and am a spiritual person, but organized religion sends me reeling!

Crazy Crolinian,

I think we are on the same team here… LOL It reminds me of something funny my son just told me while home from the Navy after 6 months in the Middle East…

GAY PEOPLE! Go be gay somewhere else.

Military have their own idea of humor and right and wrong. On the one hand they would like to blast the entire Middle East back to the stone age just to get the war over and come home. On the other hand they see how they treat their women and gays and they want to selectively kill those who are such ____… not sure I can think of a word bad enough…. sorry.

If you think the Middle East promotes homosexuality… you are not naive, you are retarded.

Did you hear about the gay night club shot up in Israel last week? I cannot remember how many died or were only injured but the gunman was said to be a Muslim and got away to come back and shoot some more another day. Better not go gay dancing in the Middle East… unless you have a death wish. Apparently Israel cannot offer a gay oasis in the Middle East either.

Looks like we have a lonely, drunken Lutheran here tonight … Sheesh.

Mark in Cincy, your lame attempt to explain homosexuality in evolutionary terms does not pass scientific rigor.

Not really…

I am surfing the web and just found out you gay folk are sensitive about a couple of lines in the movie The Hangover. I finally made time to see it when my son was home this past week from the Navy and never even really associated the two lines with your lifestyle. Matter of fact, the one line about, “Paging Dr. F****t.”, I cannot even recall. The one about, “Don’t text me. That’s gay.”, I did remember and laughed out loud as I hate texting and do consider it gay. Too time consuming…. all those little buttons… Sheesh! LMAO!

Pretty funny how your people are so sensitive. That was one funny movie and I cannot wait for the sequel! The gay jokes were a small part to all of it… very small.

Pretty funny how you are so sensitive when challenged to take a look at yourself. Sheesh.

Well that was all interesting….what I missed while eating dinner and doing the dishes! (It’s amazing all the ways you can make jello)!

I’ve enjoyed hearing your opinions. Now I’m going back to researching my clan’s history. Reading “Annals of the Four Masters” right now….talk about religious battles over the centuries!
What is the verse…..peace, peace, but there will be no peace? The other one about
men having blinders on? At least today, we tried to understand and debate without hitting blows below the belt. I’m out of here folks! You will be in my thoughts and prayers!

Conservative Mark, my my you just get more pathetic with each post.

For starters, your silly blather about homosexuality being preventable? Big fat lie. What quack told you that, brainiac? Institutions that support my assertion that there is nothing wrong or bad about being gay include the: American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, World Health Organization, American Academy of Pediatrics, Child Welfare League of America, American Bar Association, National Association of Social Workers, North American Council on Adoptable Children, American Psychoanalytic Association, American Academy of Family Physicians, American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, Council on Child and Adolescent Health, American Association of Pastoral Counselors, American Law Institute, American Bar Association, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, National Education Association, not to mention countless universities, local governments, and human rights organizations. I think these trump any handful of crackpots you can dig up.

Second, I have just as much right to read and post here as you do. Dinguses like you have a hard time walking the talk, but let me remind you this is a free country with free speech.

Third, how about you explain how gay people “flaunt” their sexual orientation any more than straight people, huh Einstein? Heterosexual sex is everywhere in daily life. We are bombarded with it constantly. Logic says if 3-5% of the population is gay, 3-5% of sex you see is gonna be gay. (Not that I expect a halfwit like you to appreciate logic.) If you’re so bigoted you can’t stand to see anything that differs from you, that’s your problem and yours alone, you sorry old rednecked windbag.

Mark in Cincy, thank you for your civil, intelligent post. It is very much appreciated.

I concur, we will likely have to “agree to disagree” on much of the detail here.

Let me clarify: I do believe propigation of species is the ultimate point of evolutionary biology. Absolutely. However, that is the basic, underlying point. It’s far more complex than that.

No one but a few nutjobs would advocate taking that to the Nth degree by engineering human beings and exterminating “mutations.” I will also grant that, purely in scientific terms, homosexuality could be considered a “mutation.” Personally I prefer the term “naturally occuring variant,” being that I am gay. But throughout the rest of society we do not willfully discriminate against those who are variants from “normal.” For example, if a woman miscarries or gives birth to an autistic child, do we sterilize her or disallow civic equality to her child? Of course not. So how is it different when we enshrine discrimination against gays into law? I find it repulsive, and I’d like to think I would find it just as repulsive if I were straight.

Gay people have the same hopes, dreams, fears, frustrations, and daily ups and downs as straight people. One tiny difference: we fall in love with our same gender. So what?

If we want to settle down into long term committed loving relationships rather than live transient lives in the dark, what’s wrong with that? In fact, isn’t that precisely what “Christian values” would have us do?

If we want to adopt unwanted children or have kids via surrogacy etc., shouldn’t society be happy that we are so determined to give our love and devotion to a new life that we’re willing to jump through extra hoops to do it?

When I say you hold gay people as less than yourself, I don’t believe you do it with malice in your heart. But what I mean to point out is, while your intention may be pure the result is hurtful, insulting, and from my point of view, cruel. I simply do not understand how a person can subscribe to a religion that makes them treat an entire other class of people that way. The irony astounds me. People of faith usually espouse the best of human virtues, except on a very few planes. Discrimination toward gay people is one of them.

I also don’t understand how some people of faith continue to use their religion as their excuse to treat gays this way, while other religions do no such thing. Which ones are right? I would hope that an objective observer would give the nod to the ones that do not demonize an entire group of people for something beyond their control.

“God doesn’t believe in atheists.”

What? I thought ‘God’ loved all mankind. Am I now to understand he only loves those who kiss his ass?

“Pretty funny how your people are so sensitive.”

Substitute the current subject matter with black people (or any other historically discriminated against minority) and it shines a big bright ugly light on just how much of a bigot Conservative Mark is.

Mark, I feeel sorry for your kids that their role model was a bigot like you. Hopefully they’ll grow to reject that.

Regarding so-called ex-gay therapy, the American Psychological Association is now on record “not to tell clients that they can change their sexual orientation through therapy or treatment.”

What I thought very interesting is that “The APA suggested that since many undergo such therapy for religious reasons, some should consider switching churches, or celibacy.” This is yet another reason for the Church to evolve. The Church must be sensitive to the needs and dignity of LGBT people and their loving families and friends.

By the way, some of the shuttered churches closed down to declining membership make terrific homes when sold and carefully renovated. Some of those stained glass windows are just AWESOME!

Dale, thank you for your articulate response to Mark in Cincy.

Anyone with a brain in their head knows that opinions of outfits like the APA is not worth squat if we do not know how many of those who are setting this “scientific” opinion are actually, in fact, themselves gay. In other words, it is kind of like expecting health care reform in Washington when most of those elected are lawyers. Both the AMA and drug companies told the Clinton’s in the 1990’s, “If you want to bring the cost of health care down, put caps on liability claims.”

You don’t turn kids lose in candy shops and you don’t let gays set religous or psychiatric policy on gays.

I really could care less who is gay or straight. Just don’t come in and try to descirate MY CHURCH to fit your sins.

Bottom line, you cannot be a Lutheran and be gay. Martin Luther defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

Given the fact you know you can’t convince me what you are doing is okay, I must assume you two (Dale and Lane) are now trying to convince yourselves you are okay.

DUH!

P.S.

You don’t need to feel sorry for my kids unless they die in the Middle East protecting the “New American Way” which includes the gay way of life. Nobody in my family believes in it and never will and it is not being a bigot. It is being a Bible following Christian, something you have proven you are not in this very blog so just get out.

Conservative Mark, just as Mark in Cincy said, you do not and cannot know everything that is in my heart and mind. I am just fine, thank you – and I am sure Dale is, too. Given this is a public forum, it is my duty to offer my perspective – and let the fair-minded visitor to this page make up his own mind. Sheesh.

Well, Lane and Dale, I have more respect for you than those who keep their identity secret until the damage is done. You two having a God loving quality of being up front and honest. I may not agree with your homosexuality but I do appreciate your good heart and soul and honesty.

What I do not appreciate is the 13 members of the ELCA sexuality committee who do not reveal their true identities and intent. They are playing from an obvious point of bias. That is descpicable and it means the formation of the ELCA was nothing less than a gay conspiracy to overthrow the Lutheran church. The Missouri Synod somehow smelled the rat before the 1987 vote and opted out at the last minute. I wish they would have told those of us in the ALC. We were the majority of the 4.5 million merger and we deeply resent the betrayl.

The same thing is happening in Washington DC right now with health care reform. If law suits are not capped and insurance rates do not come down, look for MOTS.

Lane I would truly not mind having you as a friend and sitting next to you in church. Two sinners sitting and singing together… worshipping. To be against the gay lifestyle does not make someone a bigot and anyone who tags me that is a self-serving narcissistic sinner. You wont see me trying to infiltrate a gay organization for the purpose of changing it or overthrowing it and likewise straights need to expect the same from the gays. It is despicable and not of God.

Be honest and lay your cards on the table and then if people do not like where you are coming from they can tell you so and you can go somewhere else.

The way Mark Hanson is handling this, people are leaving the ELCA in droves and the church is being destroyed. That is a fact. He wont admit it but it is indeed true. I am seeing it locally so I am sure it is occuring nationally as well.

The ELCA may be a gay church in a month but it could also become an empty church and financially strapped church. Time will tell and it will tell very quickly.

Interested Canadian, thank you for your posting yesterday evening. It is an excellent reminder that things are often not as they appear on the surface.

I am reminded of the recent NOVA show “The Bible’s Buried Secrets” on PBS. Whoever would have thought that at the time the Bible was created or put together that it was also an exercise in nation-building that led to the establishment of Israel? Great effort and care was made to establish a new way of life for the ex-slaves that did not include elements that were identified with the former masters such as the Cannanites and the Egyptians. This is very similar to what happened in our country’s early years as various institutions including churches and the media were used to develop and otherwise cultivate the idea of America as a nation peopled by Americans at the expense of individual state identities.

Conservative Mark, here’s the dictionary definition of “bigot”:

“One who is strongly partial to one’s own group and is intolerant of those who differ.”

Please tell me how you do not fit that definition.

Also, dismissing an objective, proven, universally respected organization like the APA merely because they don’t conform to your individual bigoted ideals is, well, not very intelligent or rational.

Also, what about the “more than 260 Lutheran theologians [who] signed a letter in support of allowing gay and lesbian pastors in life-long relationships to lead congregations”? In your book they are evidently not “real” Lutherans. Seems that intolerance is rearing its ugly head again.

See, tolerance is this thing where grownups can say, “I’m this way and you’re that way, and it’s ok that we are different. Peace.” No one is trying to do anything except get you to live and let live. Would that be so hard?

The honest truth is, for 40 years (and at an ever-increasing pace) variance in human sexual orientation is becoming more and more understood and accepted, and less demonized, as people realize there is nothing inherently bad about it and no one chooses it. This evolution is bound to continue. I think time will show those who choose to draw their line in the sand over something so trivial as who other people fall in love with are choosing to be left behind, choosing to bury their head in the sand, and choosing outdated rhetoric over simple common sense.

Some need for clarification:

Two questions are being decided at the Churchwide ELCA Assembly:
1. Adopt Social Statement on Sexuality?
2. Adopt Ministry Recommendations?

The ELCA has studied this issue for a long period of time, and now it is time to vote and reach consensus on this matter. Possibly the ELCA has reached a “kairos” time when the needed change may come.

While people can use passages from scripture to support different points they make, it is wrong to do so out of context. One must have an understanding of the time in which the passage was written. Different time gives one a different way in which to see the world. Our culture is evolving all the time and that makes it dynamic and gives it strength. So, please remember that the passages in scripture were written at a time of different cultural understanding of sexuality. The apostle Paul had no clear understanding of exactly what is means to be gay in today’s society–he was writing from what he knew at the time, and being gay was totally different than it is today. There were no clear examples of gay people in committed relationships as there are today. So, please understand context.

Also, being gay is not learned it is an inner part of one’s personality–it is always with you the same way it is for straight people. The AMA again two weeks ago strengthened their stand that being gay is not deviant behavior and that the so called ex-gay ministries do much more harm that they do good as there is not really an ex-gay person; just someone living in denial of their sexuality. Being in denial causes all sorts of behavior problems including suicide and drug addiction. It is best to be open and honest about one’s sexuality.

You see the church is not a perfect institution because it has been created by human kind who often makes terrible mistakes before they realize how horrible they have been. (think of the inquisition) (salem witchcraft trials) My experience has witnessed case after case of people being driving from the ministry just because they were found out to be gay. These people were very spiritual human beings. They gave a great deal to the church only to find out they were not wanted when found to be gay. This idea of ruining one’s life over sexuality issues is very two faced as straight pastors can divorce and are found to do all sorts of mischif as they are human and make mistakes. We need good spiritual leaders in the ELCA, and some outstanding spiritual leaders are gay. Gene Robinson comes to mind. Henri Nowen (a gay Roman Catholic) comes to mind.

So, I hope this has clarified the debate a bit. I pray that the ELCA will adopt the recommendations.

Gary, that is a beautiful post. A good reminder for us all. Even though I am not a member of the ELCA, I would hope that any church would want the most devoted and experienced spiritual people to rise to leadership.

Some people who realize they are gay can’t stand the idea, when they’re young, of living openly as a gay person. Nor can they stand the idea of lying and marrying heterosexually just to please society. They don’t know what to do. Some of them become priests, nuns, ministers, etc. to have a meaningful life on a path other than: love, marriage, kids, grandkids. (I believe that’s why many clergy in many churches are gay.)

If those folks are later lucky enough to fall in love and find a stable, loving, nurturing relationship, and if their commitment to god and experience are not dimisnished, why should churches sweep them under the rug? Why not embrace their commitment to their faith and let them be all they can be?

Back when the bible was translated into the various versions that exist today, people thought the world was flat and earth was the center of everything in existence. They also believed if you didn’t procreate as much as possible you risked having no one to continue the farm and the human race might even die out. Times change. Contexts change. Core principles don’t, like love, kindness, generosity, wisdom, and compassion.

Dale,

You are just plain wrong…

Because someone does not want to conform to a form of sexual deviancy or some other form of sin does not make them a bigot as they try to follow the word of God in the Bible. Because they do not agree with you does not make them a bigot. I could call you a bigot for using the term homophobic (a term made up by the gay community and unfortunately adopted by Webster in 1980). I could also call it “hate speech”. The sword cuts both ways.

Using your logic, what if I am the stronger male and I want to engage you in a sexual relationship as I “think” I am a bisexual. It just so happens my form of sexual enjoyment with you turns out to be “snuff sex”. That is, I will choke you to death as I reach my own sexual fulfillment.

What do you want to bet your parting thought of this world would be, “Boy am I stupid! Boy was I ever wrong!”

Sin is sin. God is up and Satan is down. The world is designed by our creator in black and white. There is no gray with God. Only idiots like can pretend such.

There is growing discontent in this world and the gay community is about to be beaten back into the closet. Every advanced civilization that has come to embrace homosexuality as normal has soon perished and the gays were scapegoated and murdered in retribution as a sacrifice to God.

I do not want to see history repeat itself in my lifetime. I do not want to witness people being killed because of their sexual orientation. I do not accept the lifestyle but I do accept them.

Dale, what you need to do is separate your sinful self from the person you truly are. The difference between you and me is I know I am a sinner and I do not ask you to accept my sins as normal. I am ashamed and try to improve, daily. You, sir, have no shame. You are not Christian. You are not Lutheran. In this blog you have made that painfully clear. If you were a sincere man of God, would you try Christian counseling?

The book “The Homosexual Agenda” makes your game plan very clear. I have read it. I am here to prevent you from fulfilling your plan. The constitution does not guarantee rights to those engaging in sexual deviancy and sin and remember, this country was founded and became the greatest nation on earth on Bible-based law.

[...] and the impact of written policies continued to impact many clergy, families and congregations.  This year, more clergy, laity and family members are going on record about the important ministries shared by [...]

Gary, thank you for your post this afternoon. The devil, even for the Bible, truly is in the details AND context.

And that recent burst of loud static … Sheesh.

Homo say what?

SNL 1979

Just listen to what I said. Jesus is my savior, and he never, never, never, said anything about being gay. Sexuality is a part of human existence, and so be it. Also, Jesus had a great time with eros experiences at weddings and etc.

Just be cool. The spirit will guide the way

Conservative Mark,
Sheesh. Take it easy. You do not need to be afraid. There is no homosexual agenda for you to feel worried about. Gay people are not trying to control your church or your life. They are simply asking for respect. They are asking to be treated as equals in the eyes of the government and in the eyes of the Church. They are asking to be left alone (if not supported) so that they can enjoy their families. Gay people want to be able to openly love one another. To love all of us. Please do not make yourself sick worrying about other people and their private lives.

BTW, Jesus asks us to leave judgment to him and our Father. In my close reading of Christ’s words in the New Testament, I see no guidance from Jesus about sex (heterosexual or homosexual) and whether one sexual practice or another is preferred. The Christ simply asks us to love one another and to show that love in action. To care for one another…in action. To be kind to one another. To share our wealth with the poor, the sick, the widows, the children.
BTW….This country was founded by both Christians and Deists (e.g. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Madison, etc., etc.). Our government is not Bible-based, even though the Judeo-Christian influence is strong.

Mark, Christ loves you. I am sad that you are tied up in knots. Christ loves you. You must not let yourself be overcome by hate. Your job in this life is not to worry about containing the evil (the ‘depravitiy’) that you think you see in other people. You can not be so certain that you are correct in your interpretation of Christ’s words. You only job in this life is to look for the face of Christ in each person you meet. When you can do that, you will be a follower of Christ. Christ invites you to be a true Christian but it requires humility on your part.. You must must must look for the good…not the evil in people.

Good luck, Mark! And thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts so openly.

Someone said -

” While people can use passages from scripture to support different points they make, it is wrong to do so out of context. One must have an understanding of the time in which the passage was written. Different time gives one a different way in which to see the world. Our culture is evolving all the time and that makes it dynamic and gives it strength. So, please remember that the passages in scripture were written at a time of different cultural understanding of sexuality. ”

I completely disagree with this. As has been spoken about so much lately the Church doesn’t need to change to fit the culture the culture needs to change to fit the Church !

There is nothing new under the sun. Nothing! To accuse the Scripture of not speaking about any of our current moral position(s) because of when they were written is borderline blasphemy and exemplifies exactly what is wrong with the Church today.

We don’t need Jesus to be like us, we need to be like Him! The ELCA statements regard those in homosexual relationships as those that are weak in the Faith and that we should love these brothers and sisters as our neighbors – I agree. But, because of their weakness of the Faith ( in the ELCA’s terms )how can we put those of weak Faith in leadership positions in the Church?

I’m not sure what isn’t being understood here. Sadly, because of this, I’m not sure how I can be connected to the Lutheran Church any longer.

It’s very sad.

Karen you sound like a very kind hearted soul but if you think that this is not part of a gay agenda, you are sadly mistaken and ignorant. Even those that were not supposed to find out about the agenda did so and wrote it up in detail in the book I mentioned before.

Put another way, it is not normal human behavior for people to go where they are not wanted. Normal human behavior would be for gay people to start their own church (as someone mentioned previous) and want to exclude others not like them. The gay agenda holds they want to infiltrate and change every known religion on the face of the earth to make their wrongs seem right. Certain occupations are known to attract gay people and, unfortunately, theology is one of those occupations.

Right is right and wrong is wrong and you cannot color wrong as right…. okay, you can hear on earth, but it wont wash in heaven. Gay people like to talk about Christ’s love but it is a conditional love. The conidtion is that we live according to the will of God, His Father.

The most frightening line in the Bible (to me and other true believers) is one of the very last ones:

Reveltations 22:18-19 “And I solemnly declare to everyone who reads this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God shall add to him the plagues described in this book (HIV-AIDS?). And if anyone subtracts any part of these prophecies, God shall take away his share in the Tree of Life, and in the Holy City just described.”

This is a threat and anyone who does not read it as such is an idiot.

Leviticus 18:22 – Lie Not With A Man As One Lies With A Woman; It Is An Abomination…

Since Dale gave me the definition of “bigot” before, perhaps he should look up “abomination” now.

I am not Catholic but I think the last Pope said it well when he said, “It is okay to be gay, so long as you remain celibate.”

Friends,

In Lutheran theology the first guideline in discussing or deciding any doctrine is the Scripture. What the ELCA is doing is saying that we should interpret the Scripture in a different way or that we’re unsure of how a particular Scripture was meant contextually so let’s get our council together and decide what we should do. As seen in Leviticus, Romans, and certainly other parts of the Bible, to any serious student of the Bible: homosexuality is an abomination and a sin. If you can’t recognize this I would submit you are letting our current culture determine our interpretation of God’s Word when the Word of God is timeless and was put earlier; there is nothing new under the sun. Let us stand firm on God’s word and not let the world determine our direction as a Faith.

You Buy-Bull Beaters crack me up! As an X-Catholic…and at 49yrs old a REALIST Humanist Huamn being Living and breathing on the Planet earth…try chking out on Youtube under search: HUBBLE DEEP FIELD In Our Galaxy with 100’s of BILLIONS of Stars/Suns, and 100’s of billions fo planets…in a Universe Billions of LIGHT Years across,with 100’s of BILLIONS of Galaxies and LIFE we have yet to discover and even comprehend….there is NO Mysterious SKY GAWD “up there” Judging human’s every move,and what we do with our Hoo-Hoos and Pee-pees….It’s a Ludicrous assumption to believe it. We as humans Make our own lives,and decisions. How about you Buy-Bull Beaters just TRY to be Decent Human Beings on the earth,and treat othetrs as YOU yourself wish to be treated? The Buy-Bull WAS Written by MEN, not God…(not even women contributed to these fairytales)

You Buy-Bull Beaters crack me up! As an X-Catholic…and at 49yrs old, and being a REALIST Humanist Human being, Living and breathing on the Planet earth…try chking out on Youtube under search: HUBBLE DEEP FIELD In Our Galaxy with 100’s of BILLIONS of Stars/Suns, and 100’s of billions fo planets…in a Universe Billions of LIGHT Years across,with 100’s of BILLIONS of Galaxies and LIFE we have yet to Discover and even Comprehend..there is NO Mysterious SKY GAWD “up there” Judging human’s every move,and what we do with our Hoo-Hoos and Pee-pees… .It’s a Ludicrous assumption to believe otherwise,and proves humans even in the 21st century to be Primitives! We as humans Make our own lives,and decisions. How about you Buy-Bull Beaters just TRY to be Decent Human Beings on the earth,and treat others as YOU yourself wish to be treated? The Buy-Bull WAS Written by MEN, not God…(not even women contributed to these man-made fairytales)

Thanks for stopping by ! Obviously, God is working in your life and has caused you to post here today. His gift of Salvation is free. Please accept Christ.

here’s the youtube link to HUBBLE DEEP FIELD…CHK IT OUT AND EDUCATE YOUR BRAINS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw

Conservative Mark: you are nothing but a vicious, ignorant, misinformed MFing a*hole whose expiration date has passed. Your brand of bigoted hatred has no place in America. Go join the Taliban, they love impressionable freaks like you.

And then to top it all off you think your hate is excused by religion. Um, that’s how CULTS operate you dipshit. The rest of the world knows this and is waking up to hate-filled jackasses like you.

Get bent. You are not worth another second of my time. Have a nice, rotten, miserable, hateful end of your pathetic excuse of a life. I only hope your poor kids learn to reject your bigotry.

By the way, Conservative Mark, one of the things you fail to grasp is that gay equal rights just means bigots like you can’t keep us down. It doesn’t mean you have to go get in a same sex relationship you idiot! It’s that little thing called tolerance I was explaining to you. But of course, bigot that you are, you don’t know what tolerance is. Bigot!

Small wonder I left the Church long ago. Even so, I remain hopeful both questions will be resolved such that the Church can evolve. Otherwise, it would be sad, wouldn’t it, to watch more and more LGBT Lutherans and their loving family and friends leave the Church to join gay-friendly churches – and then to watch more church buildings close down and sold due to declining membership and revenues. But then, as I said earlier, some of those stained glass windows can be AWESOME!

Conservative Mark, I cannot sit by you in the pew. There is no love and humanity in you. Sheesh.

Conservative Mark, one more because I just can’t resist pointing out what a nitwit you are.

Since you follow the Bible so literally, I assume you also throw stones at menstruating women who attend church (Lev. 15), abstain from trimming your hair (Lev. 19) advocate death to all who work on Sundays (Exodus 35), encourage parents selling their daughters into slavery (Exodus 21), believe in stoning fortunetellers to death (Lev 20:27), advocate killing a child who hits his parent (Ex. 21:15), refrain from eating shellfish (Lev. 11) or wearing cotton blend fabrics, or eating pork, etc. etc. etc.

Or will you admit you’re one of those cafeteria christians who rely on versus that suit them and conveniently ignore those that don’t?

Know what I think? I think you pull out your little handful of Bible verses, written 2,000 years ago in the context of the day and translated multiple times over the centuries by people with agendas, as the lynch pin to your bigoted attitude because then you don’t have to use your common sense which is apparently too much work (assuming you have any).

Bigot! Bigot! Bigot!

“I think the last Pope said it well when he said, ‘It is okay to be gay, so long as you remain celibate.’ ”

More idiocy.

So let me get this straight: god created some people gay, made all their instincts to love and bond emotionally as a couple for people of the same gender, gave them the beautiful gift of the capacity to love…but then expects them never to use it.

Makes no sense. That would make god kind iof a jerk, don’t you think?

Dale
Comment posted August 13, 2009 @ 1:20 pm
“I think the last Pope said it well when he said, ‘It is okay to be gay, so long as you remain celibate.’ ”

More idiocy.

So let me get this straight: god created some people gay, made all their instincts to love and bond emotionally as a couple for people of the same gender, gave them the beautiful gift of the capacity to love…but then expects them never to use it.

Makes no sense. That would make god kind iof a jerk, don’t you think?

…As I states in previous Post – any REALITY thinking person can USE thier Brains and reason that there is NO God Judging what humans do with thier penis and vaginas….it’s stupid,uneducated,and downtright DUMB! So according to the Pope ( I won’t even go there) As long as a Man Craves Vagina for his organ and orally, and the woman craves Penis vaginally and orally “God loves them”???? Am I getting that right? Religion = The Poison of Mankind,and Killer of the Human Imagination!

” god created some people gay ”

Very telling statement. A god ( small g ) created people gay. Now that might be true. But not God ( capital G ). Man defines the gay condition. God speaks against it.

” Disgusted American ”

Please use a spellcheck of some sort before you post. You come across more like ” Stupid American ” when you’re not spelling your words correctly.

Thanks.

Well
Comment posted August 13, 2009 @ 2:04 pm
” god created some people gay ”

Very telling statement. A god ( small g ) created people gay. Now that might be true. But not God ( capital G ). Man defines the gay condition. God speaks against it.

REALLY? God speaks against it..does he/she/it? ..and how do you know this..? Do u talk to this mysterious God? Is God a He/she/it? ..or are you saying that cause’ you read your mysterious Book of myths? Again, WRITTEN by MEN!

The bible was “written” by a bunch of men.

—

I’ve seen that said twice here.

The Bible was not ” written ” by a bunch of men !

The Bible was written by men but only insomuch as they were holding the pen and the Holy Spirit was guiding them.

How typical is it that those that want to change the Bible or reject the Bible say that it was ” written ” by men.

Shame on you.

Oh, so the bible wasn’t written by a bunch of men; it was “written” by a bunch of men?

Such arrogance here, from puny human minds like HowTo’s.

Also, I’ve always understood that Jesus brought us a new covenant which did away with Leviticus law. Given that, why do some professing the Christian faith keep bringing up those old laws?

” Such arrogance here, from puny human minds like HowTo’s ”

It’s so funny that people never connect their mind and spirit to God. They use the wonderful technology we’re given and the brilliant minds we have to work with and never see anything higher than themselves at work.

Such is the arrogance of man.

” Also, I’ve always understood that Jesus brought us a new covenant which did away with Leviticus law. Given that, why do some professing the Christian faith keep bringing up those old laws? ”

Yes, all law except for the moral law was fulfilled in Christ. The Bibilical moral law is very much valid today and always has been and always will be.

HowTo asserts that the Bible is a result of different men channeling God. Hmm. Does this mean there is some credence to that long-held rumor that whoever wrote Revelations did so while on an opium high? Seriously.

Well, well, nice stab at juvenile humor distinquishing between god and God. Hardy Har.

Sheesh.

“Now that might be true. But not God ( capital G ). Man defines the gay condition. God speaks against it.”

To “Well” – that is merely your opinion, not fact. What is your credential on the matter? Are you an expert on human sexuality? Are you yourself this God you speak of?

Might I point out that because you appear to have no credential on the matter, you also have no credibility.

Want to know about what makes someone gay? Ask a scientist or a gay person. Don’t bother with the know-it-all straight person who doesn’t have a clue.

“The Bible was written by men but only insomuch as they were holding the pen and the Holy Spirit was guiding them.”

Then how does one explain the various translations? The various versions? Which is the true bible?

I’m sorry, I have to agree with the first post: the bible was written by men…mere mortals…in a different time, with a different context, different societal norms, different legal rules, different agendas, different cultures, etc. No matter which version is in question, there are always those who wiled it as their weapon. I think that is a big excuse people use to avoid taking responsibility for their words and actions. “But the bible told me to act this way!” Baloney.

Loon, if by Biblical moral law, you are basically referring to the Ten Commandments; if so, then there is nothing in these imperatives that references homosexuality.

Lane,

Sorry to get back to you so late but I was at Bible study… and yes, I am serious.

As the character of Alan said in the movie, The Hangover, “I find your language very offensive. You are a mean person.”

On a more serious note…. Dale, with a mouth like yours, you are not a Lutheran, it is very obvious you are just a sodomite.

I am not longer going to post here because I am tired to try to talk sense to the damned.

Arguing with a little piss ant like yourself, well, pardon the expression but its just GAY!

Enjoy the dark side of the afterlife.

” Want to know about what makes someone gay? ”

Yeah, actually I would. I’d like to know what happens in the gay persons life that changes them from being hetrosexual ( as they are born ) to having a deviant sex life. Of all the gay people I know they can trace those feelings back to an event or events in their life. From an issue with men or for lesbians an issue with women and/or again men. Was there a sexual experience in their preteen or sexually formative years that they had, perhaps enjoyed, or were aroused, and then confused, and thought perhaps they were gay? I look at all the kids these days that decide their sexual orientation in their teenage years, with support from the gay community and it makes me sick. Kids, NOT ADULTS, making decisions that will affect them for the rest of their lives without any basis of any kind of adult maturity or experience to base a decision on.

You people recruiting and supporting these kids, enabling them really, honestly, it makes me want to puke.

Looks / sounds like Conservative Mark has NO clue what “sodomy” is…..Hey brainiac, sodomy is NOT just anal sex….its any sex that’s not penis/vaginal…so if thats the case 99% of humanity are sodomites. So Mark….(this should be rich) what Book is more correct….Bible,Torah,or Koran? It must bug you that we have a “supposed” secular Gov’t…tho you’d like to be part of the “American Taliban” wouldn’t ya? Sorry dude, we are NOT a Theocracy….Open up your pea brain,and expand it….women can vote now,blacks are considered Equal…and LGBT Americans WILL get thier well Deserved Equal Rights….either evolve, or get out of the way!

Homosexuals are only entitled to one right…. the right to remain silent.

Praise be to God that Conservative Mark’s work here, such as it is, is done! Seriously. Sheesh.

Damn gaytheists!

http://www.ralliance.org/TVC_RecruitChildren.html

This page debunks five myths:
1. Homosexuals are pedophiles.
2. Homosexuals adopt/bear children for sex.
3. Homosexuality is recruitable.
4. That their (Traditional Values Coalition) ‘experts’ know best and are qualified to discuss homosexuality.
5. Gay kids are not more at risk to commit suicide.

I was once a child. I’ve always known I’m gay. I was never recruited. I grew up in a different time where there were no resources and support available for LGBT children struggling to understand themselves; instead, I stayed deep in the closet primarily for my safety given how hostile society was back then. I did not start coming out until I was 26 years old. It was rough, but I made it.

I’m glad times have changed, that LGBT children now have support and resources they need to be able to grow into productive, loving and well-adjusted adults. There is still work to do given that LGBT children are several times more likely to commit suicide than straight peers.

Having read through the conversation this morning, I have a few comments.

1) Churches have the right to their beliefs on this issue (and others).
2) Homosexuality is NOT clearly defined as sinful (in non-abusive situations) if you study the Bible using the Historical-Critical method. The Historical-Critical method is clearly stated to be the ELCA’s approach to reading scripture. If you want to read the Bible literally there are plenty of other denominations available to you (WELS, LCMS, and many non-Lutheran denominations and independent churches)
3) The ELCA is considering changes to its stance on homosexuality because many members, after significant study and much prayer, conclude that the Bible does not define homosexual behavior in the context of a monogamous committed relationship to be a sin. This is not because homosexuals are trying to “infiltrate” our church. Maybe some are, but the main support for this comes from ELCA members who want to do what they believe is right in light of scripture.
4) I disagree with the idea of a “gay church.” Diversity in our churches is a good thing. We don’t learn and have healthy theological or practical debate if we are all the same.
5) If this does pass, it doesn’t require you to change your personal belief on the issue. It does require that you accept that there are differing views within the ELCA and that people on both sides of the issue are committed to Biblical Christianity.
6) All of us should be able to agree to show love to anyone in our churches, regardless of race, sexual orientation, etc. If you disagree with someone on the issue of homosexuality, trust that they have come to their position through much study and prayer. Invite civil dialogue on the issue and agree to disagree. Disagreement does not preclude loving one another as Christ taught.

As a matter of full-disclosure (unlike the authors of the sexuality statement), I am a married heterosexual male. I grew up as a very conservative Christian. Through my study of the Bible and many theological writings I have come to believe much differently than I did as a child. I have seen both sides of this and many other issues up close.

To: “Well” –

It is pretty clear you do not want to know abot what makes people gay. You have decided already. That’s sad. When someone arrives at answers backward, by means of discrening which answer would most conveniently support your existing beliefs, that isn’t knowledge. It is ignorance. “Well” congratulations on the ignorance you so proudly embrace.

Just one question: WHY on earth would anyone in their right mind choose to be gay? Think about that.

No one chooses it. No one would. But it’s convenient for people like you to believe that, because it allows you to absolve yourself of any responsibility for the vicious things you say about gay people. Who never chose it.

Homosexuality is merely a natural variant that occurs in small numbers in both humans and in the animal kingdom. We don’t know exactly why yet but we have some indicators.

Honestly I hope we never do fully know why because the vicious bigots of the world will probably start plotting how to genetically engineer it out of humankind to appease their stupid fears.

By the way “Well,” you are so off track. Gay people exist in all backgrounds. Every race, every socioeconomic setting, every kind of family or sibling make up. Every ethnicity, every geography, every everything. There is no pattern.

Any pattern you think you’re noticed, you were just seeing the “evidence” you wanted to see to support what you already decided.

I hate to break it to you, but your beliefs are about 4 decades old.

J,

Here is another discussion regarding this issue. It’s comments are very in depth regarding Lutheran theology. Read through the bottom of the letter to the comment section. You are incorrect. The Bible certainly does teach that the marriage relationship, which this subject is really about, is to be between a man and a woman.

http://www.lutheranforum.org/sexuality/open-letter-from-hispanic-pastors-of-the-elca/

” I hate to break it to you, but your beliefs are about 4 decades old. ”

God’s Word, thankfully, is timeless.

” Gay people exist in all backgrounds. Every race, every socioeconomic setting, every kind of family or sibling make up. Every ethnicity, every geography, every everything. There is no pattern. ”

Of course there is a pattern.

“J” – what a wonderful post. Thank you. Very insightful and good food for thought, for all of us.

” LGBT children now have support and resources they need to be able to grow into productive, loving and well-adjusted adults. There is still work to do given that LGBT children are several times more likely to commit suicide than straight peers. ”

That is so interesting. Exactly how do you identify LGBT kids ? They’re kids. What kind of reasonable decision making ability do they have regarding their sexuality ?

Most ADULTS don’t have the capacity to make reasonable decisions in their lives.

It’s fairly honest question. Are you able to provide an honest answer ?

Well –

I think you are in serious denial.

You have obviously dedided there is only one thing you will believe (what you want, what’s convenient) so why do you even pretend to seek answers? It’s a ruse. If you wanted to actually know, you would inquire and converse.

Not that this will sink in to your already-decided mind, but for what it’s worth to other readers who honestly want to know…

When I think back, my very first thoughts of “attraction” to anyone were roughly at age 7 or 8. These were not what I would call sexual, more like the beginning curiosity that later develops into sexuality when one reaches puberty.

I was never abused (sexually or otherwise), nothing traumatic happened in my plain and average rural life. I have five siblings close in age, all of us having attended the same schools, spent holidays with the same relatives, played in the same backyard, ate the same food, etc. etc. and I am the only gay one.

From those first thoughts, through later ones, actually through every stage of growth all along the way–and to this day–every single natural, gutteral, instinctual attraction I have ever had for another human being has been toward men. I can certainly recognize a pretty woman, just like I suppose a straight man can recognize a handsome man without being attracted to him. But that’s not the same thing.

Every single one of us (over age 13 or 14) knows what it is to feel attracted to someone. It’s sexual attraction yes, but it’s more than just that because you experience it even if you do nothing more than see a person across a crowded room. That little shortness of breath that makes you pause. The little tingly feeling inside.

We don’t “choose” who we will spark that feeling in us.

For gay people, the only times they have ever felt that in their life it has been to their same gender. So what?

I could deny it. I could stuff away the reality, I could marry a woman (at best someone I like as a friend, even if I told her I love her), I could even have children. After all, the parts do work the same. But I would still be a gay man. I would just be a gay man living a lie. (And pity that poor wife who is stuck with an imitation husband.)

So anyone who thinks gay people chose to be gay, come on. Please. Use common sense for just one moment. Who would choose such a thing? Knowing it’s gonna get you a very hard road ahead in our society. I certainly wouldn’t.

In fact, as long as I’m telling the story, once I faced reality (that I am gay) I was so despondent over what it would mean for my life I tried to kill myself. I didn’t have the will or courage to move forward knowing what it would mean for my life, but I also refused to live a lie. I figured there was no other option.

Thankfully it didn’t work and I gained the acceptance, strength, courage, and confidence to go forward with my life despite having to deal with people like “Well” and “Conservative Mark” at every turn. It’s not easy sometimes but it has made me stronger in some ways.

I’m happy, with a good life by any measure. Which gender I fall in love with or am attracted to is one teeny tiny thing about me. Who cares? It’s really no one else’s business.

For the life of me I can’t figure out why some people insist on making such a big deal out of it.

Because, if you profess to be a Christian, it does matter. The Bible speaks specifically against homosexuality. Specifically! Marriage is between a man and women. It makes that distinction. The gay people who are Christians may deny or read whatever they want into Scripture but nevertheless it is there. When it comes down to it, believe it or not, and I still believe it to be wrong, I could care less what two ADULTS do. I view them as lost. GLBT groups, people, whatever, have no business dealing with children and that’s defined ( mine ) not having the age related maturity to make adult decisions. They don’t have the experience, background, or knowledge to do it. But that’s my deal, obviously. As a Church the Lutheran denomination has to stand firm on Scripture. Has to. As it was put .. the Church cannot change with the culture. The beliefs are grounded in God’s infallible Word inspired by the Holy Spirit. If you believe otherwise you are on the outside looking in to Christianity. As it was written – the road is narrow. We aren’t at liberty to make that choice. Follow God or don’t. If someone makes an adult decision to do so, so be it. America may even defend your right to do so. Big deal. The Church answers to God though and has to follow His will.

Well, if you are looking for an easy way to identify a LGBT child, there isn’t. This child’s sexuality is NOT yours or mine to determine; rather, it belongs to that child and that child only. That is why it is so important for the child to be in a healthy, loving, respectful environment with access to whatever support and resources the child might need.

Well, I see you that you believe that marriage is Biblically defined as between “a man and women.” You might want to devote your energy towards the polygamy/polyamory cause instead.

I watched a documentary not that long ago on PBS that examined the harmful effects of polygamy on the wives and children in a Mormon community. It was sad and upsetting. Unfortunately, I do not recall the title of the show.

In your 1:36PM posting, you said there is a pattern. What is it?

The show I mentioned is “Banking on Heaven.” Details can be found at http://www.bankingonheaven.com/ .

Sigh. It may be the History Channel rather than PBS, but the name of the show is correct – “Banking on Heaven.”

Well, you state your beliefs as if they are facts. They’re not. They are your beliefs.

I think your belief about churches not changing with the times is unfortunate.

I’m not advocating that any church abandon it’s principles when they become inconvenient. Of course not. That would be silly and weak.

The world around has profoundly changed in myriad ways over the last 2,000 years. While bedrock principles like love, charity, compassion and humility are timeless, to deny that rules and guidelines are malleable is, to me, sticking your head in the sand and not dealing with reality.

For example, technology and medical ethics. Today’s reality could not have even been dreamt of back then. For crying out loud they still thought the world was flat! Situations arise, circumstances come together, that require conscience and judgment. The conscience and judgment is required to best apply the true bedrock principles to the changing world. That’s what I believe.

A loving, committed, monogamous gay couple who are faithful and good and model citizens, nurturing each other and enriching their communities, simply CAN NOT be against God. That would make NO SENSE. No sense at all.

Well, I am sure that many of the organizations that Dale listed TWICE in earlier postings can better answer your questions about LGBT children. I personally feel that it is child abuse to deny the reality of variant sexual orientation or gender identity to a child; support and resources now exist for the child and his or her parents to deal with this in a healthy, respectful and loving way. Right now, I am not aware of any church that is so qualified as a resource.

Hello J, thank you for your thoughtful post.

Disgusted American, I also thank you for your “Family Guy” touch. Crude but effective. Chuckle.

But Dale you said befoer you do not believe in God so are you both bipolar as well as homosexual? Most homosexuals have other underlying mental problems.

I clicked on the link provided by Well to read that open letter from the ELCA Hispanic pastors. I read through all the comments; the rather vigorous discussion there from the regular church-goer perspective reminded me of a very dysfunctional family squabbling with each other over what to do with “the homosexual child” not even thinking to ask that child … Sheesh.

Dale, you might want to read this article “Lutherans, gathering in Minn., prepare for major vote on church stance toward gay clergy” at http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/faith/53237552.html, paying close attention to what Rev. Dave Glesne and Diane Baardson, a member of the church council, at Our Redeemer Lutheran Church in Fridley, Minnesota has to say.

Then take note of what Bishop Peter Rogness of the St. Paul, Minnesota Synod said: “If someone tries to argue this is going to be the test as to whether we are scripturally faithful or not, that’s a hard argument to make because Scripture says so little about homosexuality,” I also picked up on mention of this paucity in that online discussion attached to the open letter by the Hispanic pastors.

I also am quite offended by the use of the word “homosexual” in the pathological context by Lutherans on both sides of the debate. I am a man who happens to be gay.

After all that happened this week, I find myself no longer caring about what happens with these votes, committing myself much more strongly to the principles of rational humanism.

Besides, did you see that discussion about “snuff sex” even in the hypothetical? Quite horrifying.

Too bad there is no easy way for us to get in touch with each other so we can go out for a drink and leave these Lutherans behind to choke on their jello.

Instead of saying “Peace be with you all,” I am going to see “SHEEEEEEEEEEEESH!”

Straight Arrow, shame on you.

Straight Arrow, I don’t believe in god. My post was hypothetical, in the context of the supernatural belief systems of those who do believe in such things.

But then it’s no surprise you weren’t able to figure that out.

How simplistic of you to demonize whatever and whoever you don’t understand. Like an intellectual five year old.

Rational humanism rejects all form of supernaturalism as myth.

Hey Dale,

If your are not part of the homosexual agenda then why are you reading this and posting here WHEN YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD?

and

If you don’t believe in God you can’t be demoinized, “dumb ass”!

God must have a really keen sense of humor. If we’re all made in God’s image, what does that say about all of the posters on this blogsite? Is God bi-polar, paranoid, and full of strange fears?

[...] The Minnesota Independent reported on leading voices on both sides of the issue last week, and the Star Tribune reported yesterday that, although a close vote is expected, the Lutherans insist that a tradition of politeness will prevail. [...]

Belle,

Make no mistake, God is perfect. It are those made after Him that are flawed. If you think God is just this warm little huggy face, you do not know your Bible very well. It amuses me that some idiots insist that there is no God and yet they cannot explain how there are sea fossils found in even the highest points on earth. Kind of blows Darwin out of the water….

Straight Arrow, you must not have been paying attention in your basic geography class. Brush up on your knowledge of plate tectonics. Have fun!

Gay Men Systematically Tortured and Killed in Iraq

Gay Men Systematically Tortured and Killed in Iraq

Phew…I dared come back in here.

LOL @ Belle. Well they say “God made us in his own image”. He obviously has a great sense of humor as well!

J – it was great to read what you had to say. Thank you…it’s nice to know that there are minds out there that are willing to look at the checks and balances and weigh the differences of something that was “written” (yes I’m one of those that says “written by men”) ages ago – interpreted and re-interpreted from an ancient language. Times change.

* * * *

Reality is subjective. Unfortunately we aren’t going to change anyones mind for them.

I’ve known committed gay/lesbian relationships that are healthier and have lasted longer than 90% of hetero marriages/relationships.

And to the conservatives on the board here…as one of the guys (Lane or Dale) said..I’ve never met a gay or lesbian person that says “it was due to some sexual experience or childhood abuse”.

* * * *

Dale and Lane – keep on being real. XOXO

Most sociological/psychological research from the organizations that Dale has mentioned say that gay men come from homes with an absent and/or abusive father figure AND a strong mother figure. I only have anecdotal evidence of this as the dozen or so gay men I do know have referred to their biological fathers as ’sperm donors’

However, I personally believe homosexuality is rooted in the sin of rebellion both against humans and G-d. Sin started with the fall of man and homosexuals get a double whammy through personal and societal sin. I also believe that the gays who say “I always knew I was gay” have buried in their subconsious the sin that caused them to start down the path towards.

Romans 1:21-32

For those of you inclined please pray that the ELCA does not pass the Ministry Recommendations on Friday, Aug. 21st.

AND NOW A WORD FROM OUR SPONSOR FROM THE GREAT BEYOND:

Martin Luther

Bjorn14, I doubt you read any of that research that is decades old and most likely discredited by now.

As for the cited Scripture, I just rolled my eyes because I don’t have a “debased mind” nor am I “filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice” nor am I “full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness.” “They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless” doesn’t sound like me either.

Sheesh.

For the full story behind German Lutheran’s photo, go to http://www.towleroad.com/2008/03/notes-from-rura.html. Some of the comments are hilarious reading, too.

Sheesh.

Actually Lane I have read an incredible amount of academic literature on the subject over the last 20 years because I have an uncle who is gay and I am trying to understand it all. My family has loved and prayed for him for over 50 years. We didn’t kick him to the curb like some families want to do. In his 30’s he could have been arrested and convicted of pedophilia but by the grace of G-d he wasn’t

As for the scripture you must have missed verse 27–”In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” (NIV)
I could argue that you are ‘unrighteous,’ a ‘hater of God’ and ‘faithless’ since you claim to be a “rational humanist” but that might be for another day.

I’ve always been curious about this, If LGBTs say they didn’t choose the way they are then at what point do we say you are held accountable for your behavior. When the Gay Rights movement started it was just the Gays and Lesbians who were in it…then Bisexuals were added and then Transexuals/Transgenders…what’s next S&M’s? Pedophiles? Axe-murderers? They can all say they were born this way.
The list could go on and on.

Bjorn14, I don’t know what “incredible amount of academic literature” you’ve read over the last 20 years, but it is revealing that after all this time and effort at trying to understand, you and your family still haven’t been able to accept your gay uncle. I do not know all the details nor do I want to in this public forum. Absent those details, your use of the word “pedophilia” is suspect.

I personally condemn pedophilia regardless of who commits it – whether he or she is straight, gay, lesbian, bi-sexual or transgendered.

As for the Scripture, I continue to maintain that the Bible is but a collection of stories written by different men thousands of years ago. I focused on those verses to point out the non sequitur.

To be a hater of God, god or G-d requires that this “being” exists for me to hate. As I said earlier, rational humanism rejects all forms of supernaturalism as myth.

So far, our movement is LGBTQQIA – standing for lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex and ally. It is obvious you do not know our history – and do not want to. That’s fine, but that does not entitle you to malign or otherwise distort who we are.

Axe-murders. Snuff sex. Boy! Some of you Lutherans are scarier than those who engage in consensual S&M.

Sheesh.

As for consensual S&M, a LOT of straights (or “heterosexuals”) indulge in this pastime. Different strokes for different folks.

I think we just all need to agree that homosexuality is an affliction and pray over it and rid the world of it. Those of us that are middle of the road Bible followers do not like Gay Pride Parades but we also do not like gays hanging from construction cranes in Iran. Both are just plain gross to the average American.

German Lutheran, you are a hoot.

From where I stand, I think we just all need to agree that religion-based ignorance and intolerance is an affliction to be rid of world-wide.

Don’t like Pride parades. Don’t go. BTW, I see a lot of average Americans including zealous Bible thumpers with their huge signs and bullhorns each time I go to one.

Lane,

Because some take the Bible as the word alone, that does not make them ignornant or intolerant. You have to know that.

You have to know that we are all sinners but you, and your kind, have no business pushing your agenda.

When I was a young man of 18 I had two grandmothers who wanted me to become a Lutheran pastor. I did not go there for two reasons…. I had a foul mouth and I liked the women. In other words, my sin made me feel unclean enough.

The gays that are in the clergy lack the same pride I had. I wont curse them but God will. God says multiple times he wont be mocked. He knows the number of hairs on our heads.

Only a fool would challenge God in this instance. In other words, if you are a gay clergy in the ELCA now, and I know many of them are, the best thing you could do for the sake of your soul is walk away.

GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED!

I do not say this out of contempt but out of love. There is nothing more important in this world to us but our souls.

German Lutheran, you are more than welcome to your own beliefs, but you, and your kind, have no business pushing your agenda and beliefs on others. This is why I push back as I do.

I define religion-based ignorance and intolerance as blindly following the tenets of your faith to the point of excluding the reality all around you and to the point of not accepting others who are different than you are.

From where I stand, your words are said more out of contempt and exasperation, not necessarily out of love.

Sheesh.

Lane,

I have no “agenda”. My only desire is to follow the Bible and the teachings of Martin Luther. You say I am “blindly following the tenets of your faith”. From one of your posts above, I thought you were a Lutheran as well?

There is a difference between blindly following tenets of one’s faith and being obedient to one’s faith.

Your words would make one think you are pushing an agenda, a gay agenda. Are you really a Lutheran or are you just posting here to make a point for the gay cause?

German Lutheran, try re-reading my posts more carefully. My only agenda is full equality under the law for all LGBT peoples including equal access to civil marriage. My activism attempts to help counter the intrusive effects of organized religion including Lutherans as it continues in its harmful marginalization of LGBT peoples by denying them dignity, respect and that full equality.

I was raised a Lutheran, and though I no longer follow the Lutheran faith, I still possess strong values of love, compassion and justice. My sedulous participation in this conversation is with the hopes that ELCA will evolve so that it will be a far more welcoming place for LGBT Lutherans both now and in the future than it ever was for me while I was growing up.

I’ve known – and continue to meet – religious people who are full of grace. Unfortunately, you (and several others here) are not among them. Sheesh.

German Lutheran, I would not ask you not to be obedient to your faith, but I would ask you to re-examine your faith on this issue.

Gentlebeings, I feel I’ve spent more than enough time participating in this conversation doing the best I know how while being true to myself. I’ll see some of you again elsewhere in cyberspace.

Grace and judgement go hand-in-hand and you homosexuals seemingly want to neglect you are not only living in sin but working to further its acceptance.

God can show grace on a person who sins and repents and feels bad about it. I do not see that in the homosexual community. I see all of you making excuses for your behavior and then wanting it to be commonplace.

To put it in simple terms you and anyone reading this can understand. We all will face a day to be judged. We may not all be shown grace.

Worry about yourself, German Lutheran.

That “judge not, lest ye be judged” thing seems easy for you to ignore. Not to mention the one about casting the first stone…

The Bible also tells us to distance ourselves from sin and sinners Paul. That is why a homosexual free ELCA is so important to those truly following the Bible.

Paul, isn’t it funny how you homosexuals get angry and twist try to twist the Bible to fit your own sinful lifestyle? I think it is very funny. You girly men are all so angry! Gay is truly not the correct word to describe you.

Paul, your sexuality is not important to me. Your soul is.

When you are an old man unable to have sex, you will think back on these days and regret them and think, “Boy, was I a fool.”

Romans 1:27 “…the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet…”

Pretty clear. Oh wait, what’s this next verse:

“…they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents..”

I patiently wait for the ELCA to ban from the clergy all people who are covetous, envious, who debate, are proud, who boast, or who are disobedient to their parents. Why will this never happen? Because no modern Lutheran of any stripe lives a “Biblical” life, or a life that resembles the first Christians in any way. They, like all Christians (liberal and conservative), pick and choose the passages which reinforce the life they have chosen for themselves, and then they congratulate themselves for being on God’s side. Pharisees and Sadducees all over again.

As a straight ally, all I can do is to encourage my gay brothers and sisters to stop wasting your time with these hypocrites and get out while you can. I did. I still love my Lutheran relatives, but I have no time for this superstition.

“Christians” commenting here: try directing your disgust at a sin that is condemned in the Bible far more than gay sex: greed. I’ll listen to you after your national campaign to rid the church of the greedy. Currently, they sit on your church councils and have buildings at your colleges named after them.

Wow Erik,

I sense you have a lot of hostility.

Still, if you side with the gays, I must ask you to help me organize the next ELCA convention in Teheran next year. Wouldn’t that be a hoot?!?!

Your contempt for all other forms of sin is as insincere as your acceptance of homosexuality as a hetrosexual.

Either you are a Lutheran in name only, and never attended Sunday School or Bible study, or you are a phony just posting for the gay cause… like any straight would care…. sheesh!

bottom line is Erik, Martin Luther held that marriage can only be between a man and a woman and it is HIS church.

WWMLD?

He would tell you to get out!

[...] ELCA is the second largest mainline Protestant church in the U.S. with 4.6 million members.  This year, an increasing number clergy, laity and family members are going on record about the important [...]

Quick update.

Regarding the proposal to repeal the ban on non-celibate gay and lesbian ministers, the motion on Monday to have the vote on this matter changed from a simple majority to a two-thirds supermajority FAILED with 57% of the voters against.
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/faith/53514822.html

The Social Statement on Sexuality PASSED on Wednesday by the thinnest of margins – 66.67%! A two-thirds supermajority was needed; of the 1,045 votes, AYE: 676 , NAY: 338, not voting/not present: 29, abstain: 2. UFF DA!
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/faith/53738512.html

[...] Church of Christ as mainline denominations that have moved toward full inclusion in recent years.  An increasing number clergy, laity and family members are going on record for [...]

The reference to homosexuality in the Bible is limited to only a few verses of the tens of thousands. If these few verses were in error or taken out of context then I would suggest to you that tithing (found in a similar number of verses) should also be stricken from church teachings. Jesus told the woman at the well with eight husbands to go and sin no more–this too must be stricken from our teachings!!! Drunkards should also not be excluded from our pastoral and teaching roles. Those that take the name of the Lord in vain should not be excluded–why is theirs a bigger sin? Isn’t a rapist also only fulfilling his own sexual desires–why exclude them–they are also children of God!!!

When you really look at it we are either a Christian church or we are a body that is empty of all meaning. If none of the Bible’s teachings matter than we are just supporting a group of synod leaders and church elders that want the best seats at the banquets.

You are the Church!!! What you accept in your own Church will eventually be what you accept in your own life.
There are guidelines for living set out in the Bible. You have the power to accept or reject them. I will not leave the Church but I will not give it my financial support if they offend core teachings of the Bible. If all of you do this we will eventually get back to some sort of reverence for the teachings of the Bible as a way of life.

This issue will never be solved by us in the ELCA. There is no question that a division in our church will occur and because of the stance and vote people will be leaving and joining other synods. The final judgement is Gods but the division in our church will occur as many do not believe that they should be able lead us as shepards leading the sheep to salvation.