Ninety-five Lutherans come out during ELCA vote on gay pastors

Bless each and everyone of them!

Rev. Ruth Frost and Rev. Phyllis Zillhart shared that their daughter “doesn’t know what the Lutheran church as a whole is to her.” I relate to that as we have four children who feel the same. It breaks my heart to know that the church that was so much a part of my life is no longer a part of theirs.

The Lutheran church has lost so many young people who can not understand the church’s stance on refusing to fully welcome all of God’s children.

I cannot believe that this kind of scandal is even allowed – IN ANY CHURCH – Of course, I cannot get beyond women being ordained in the first place –

Whenever I read about women being ordained, I am so grateful that our Church does not allow this mockery of Religion – These women being ordained stems from that Women’s Lib thingie – Women thinking that they can fullfill roles that God has designed for males alone -

I witnessed all of this first hand when I worked as Secretary in an ELCA Church office – A husband and wife pair who were not the least bit sincere in their roles as ordained ministers – and they also supported gay rights – allowing gays to serve as Godparents – Just made me sick – They also supported abortion rights – this further sickened me – but at the same time – made be grateful and thankful for my religion ~ and my church that was located just 2 blocks away – a safe refuge from all of this madness –

Oh well – why do I worry? We will all stand before HIM to be judged one day – and we will see what HE has to say about all of this –

Homosexuality is a grave sin – at least in the Bible that I read – unless, of course, the ELCA has a different version – Obvioulsy, they must!

As an ordained Christian Minister, who is also gay, I applaud the work of my colleagues who, in spite of public opinion, continue to reach out to God’s people and are true to their calling. The bible says “whosoever will let them come” and the last time I checked, I and my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters are included in the word whosoever. It doesn’t say whosoever that is not…. or whosoever that is….. The words are clear and to the point, “whosoever will…” and therefore, we will.

I left the Lutheran Church after many years because I am gay and could not deal with the intolerance with in the ELCA. Perhaps now I could reconsider, except that I have found a warm and comfortable community within the UCC.

“These women being ordained stems from that Women’s Lib thingie – Women thinking that they can fullfill roles that God has designed for males alone.”

In the words of one very insightful young man in my Christian Theology class, as we were discussing the “tradition” that men alone can be pastors (which is based, ultimately, in the fact that Jesus was male: “Doesn’t that mean we all need to be Jewish carpenters, too?”

If you determine truth why is it truth? for you are a mere finite being. No, God determines what is right and wrong by his word, that does not change. His word, the Bible is perfect, it describe homosexuality as sin, as an abomination to him, he hates it. That does not change, Repent or you will die in your sins. You are serving an idol to suit yourself, to suit your own unregenerate desires, that is idolatry and it is the oldest sin in the book. Homosexuals shall not inherit the Kingdom, that is clear Ron, you are a false prophet! Jesus Christ will have you and change you on his terms, or you will have none of him. http://www.goodpersontest.com

It never ceases to amaze me how some folks claim the bible says homosexuality is a sin. I can’t seem to find that admonishment in any of the bibles I’ve picked up. I do see certain references to “lying with” and “spilling seed” — but absolutely nowhere can I find the term HOMOSEXUAL. It is also interesting that many of these same folks tell me how God condemns gay and lesbian people — as told to them in their bible — but neglect to mention the other things their bible says; like wearing garments made of two cloths, or selling a daughter into prostitution, the examples abound(!) but they feel safe in discarding those and reading selective quotes in order to substantiate their viewpoint. Hmmm, I wonder when they decided to be heterosexual? I also wonder why their God chose to create homo/hetero in the first place.

Check it out. Birds do it, bees do it, even elephants and bears do it. Heterosexual union is for the creation of off spring. We already have an over populated planet but these very same people claim marriage (read = copulation) is restricted to a man and a woman. That may be true if one desires to procreate, but what about those folks practicing birth control. Does it really matter who loves whom?

I am glad to see this dialog starting to take shape. It’s been way too long in the coming. At 60+ years old I’ve come full circle in my original thinking on this matter. I was wrong as a child for thinking WASP/heterocentrisim was the “correct” way. But then, I was a child. As an adult I know it matters little what the gender or sex is of the person I love.

[...] as gay and lesbian pastors to the ELCA assembly in Minneapolis. The group includes 17 Minnesotans, reports Minnesota Independent, which published the list of Minnesotans “taking a stand on the ELCA vote on ordaining openly [...]

As a lesbian in a committed, lovely relationship, I have been happy to be a Lutheran since, well, forever. I love the music. I love the pot-lucks and the commitees and the service work. My partner feels welcome in my church – granted, in a liberal, university town. She has decided, having grown up outside of the Church, that she likes Lutherans.

Whether I’m gay or not is not the central issue, either for me as a Christian, a Lutheran, or as a human being. The first commandment of the Ten is “I am the Lord your God…”; the New Testament focuses on “Love Thy Neighbour”. Looking hard enough, I can find mention of same-gender sex, but that is not the focus. Jesus is Love; _that_ is the central point, the focus of our Church and of my life as a Christian and a member of this wonderful world.

Personally, I feel that my relationship, my beautiful, healthy, constructive relationship with my partner, is God-given – how could it be otherwise? But if I make a mistake – I make many mistakes. I try my best, I ask forgiveness. Most of all, I say “Thanks.”

I have a hard time understanding, why the “Homosexual Question” is so very central, so very important to so many people, when, to me, gay though I am, it isn’t. It’s part of who I am, but not all.

Thanks for reading.
-Aara Edwards
Ithaca, NY

JESUS Loves You! Salvation… 100% Totally FREE

Earth is the only Hell Christians will ever experience, but the only Heaven Sinners will ever know! JESUS is the way – John 14:6

Prayer of Salvation

“Dear Jesus, I believe in You. I believe You are the Son of God, that You died for my sins, and that You were buried and rose again as written in the Bible. I’m sorry for the things I’ve done that hurt You. Forgive me for all my sins. Come into my heart, take charge of my life and make me the way You want me to be. With Your ever present help, I renounce all my sinful practices of the past. Cleanse my heart with Your precious blood. Write my name in Your Book of Life. I confess You now as my Lord and Savior. Fill me with Your Holy Spirit. Thank You, Jesus! In Jesus’ Name, Amen.”

If you prayed the Prayer of Salvation, CALL a “TBN” Prayer Partner at: 1-888-731-1000 (www.tbn.org)

The Book of 1 Timothy discusses overseers and deacons of the church. It clearly states in Chapter 3, vs. 2 that “now the overseer (pastor) must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife….”. This vs. does not state that overseers (pastors) should be (or can be) lesbians or gays. The same book in Chapter 4 goes on to state in vs. 1 that “the Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.” Interesting stuff, folks.

I think that, whatever you feel the Bible does or does not say about homosexuality, the bigger message that I glean from this article is that there is a very brave, now very vulnerable group of 95 pastors and potential pastors who have taken the enormous step of putting everything on the line for something they believe in. This is a group of people who have the most to lose by the decision at the churchwide assembly, and they could have just sat by quietly waiting to see what happens. Instead, they opened themselves up to bigotry and the possibility of being de-rostered in order to participate in what could be the biggest decision made in the church in my time (I’m 30). I don’t care what you believe – that’s admirable.

The Old Testament also prohibits shrimp-eating and wearing mixed-fiber clothing in the same book. Until people start protesting shrimp-eating clergy and demonstrating in front of clothing factories, I’m concluding that people pick and choose which “sins” to get upset about.

The Bible is a pretty interesting book. Too bad more Christians haven’t read it.

Kurt, I see your point — but as Christians, while we need to be familiar with the Old Test., we need to be more conscerned with the New Test. Otherwise, we would not be Christians, we would be Jewish and would there by worry about shrimp eating clergy. While the New Test. clearly states sin (even homo-sexuality) will be forgiven, the New Test. does not allow for members of the clergy to be homosexual. I’m not saying I disagree with homosexuality–just that the New Test. does not allow clergical leaders to be homosexual. It’s pretty straight forward. Jen, I agree with you too. The “95″ were very brave to step out that way. I hope they do not regret it. Their faith must be very strong.

I have bookmarked this particular story, just for the comments. Any time someone in my life wonders why I left Lutheranism, I will merely need to send this link to show that even the “saved” have no clue as to what “the truth” is. Is homosexuality okay? Is eating shrimp okay? Is it okay to just put my fingers in my ears and go “LALALALA” and call it faith when someone raises a legitimate question about the inconsistencies of my religion? I guess those are very complex issues that need lots and lots of screaming to figure out.

It heartens me to know that there are apparently a few decent people who call themselves Christians (although the overlap in that particular Venn Diagram still is quite small). Maybe one day the church – and its members – will actually stand for peace, compassion, and justice instead of anger, hatred, and bigotry.

Well, the New Testament also dictates everyone to “pick up their cross” and follow Jesus. Leaving everything. I admire the crazy man on the street corner with no possessions telling everyone that they need to repent. At least he is following Mark 8:34. The followers that bother me are the ones that comment on online forums and treat their religion as a cultural comfort blanket while allow themselves to still have computers. If the decisions and beliefs you have in this temporal life decide what happens eternally when you die, then being poor and starving should be no object. Mark 8:34.

Note that I still think the devout true Christian on the corner is crazy. I’m by no means religious but seem to know the book and theology better than most.

Also, An Educated Guy, your 1 Timothy quote allowing a clergy member one wife seems to be ignored by Catholics who enforce celibacy. I think, due to the sheer numbers, that they are more deserving of your concern than a few LGBT pastors.

The direction about one wife meant that they could not have TWO (or more!) wives. It wasn’t commenting on sexual orientation at all. If you want to see what the bible really says about homosexuality (or more to the point, doesn’t say) watch the movie, “For the Bible Tells Me So.” People are born with certain gender and sexual traits, and as long as they are not promiscuous it doesn’t really matter who they fall in love and spend their lives with — what matters is that they serve God. I would never belong to a church or worship a God who would condemn people to hell for loving each other. And God loves them even more perfectly than I do.

Patricia Adam, God can use women as pastors, just as he can use men. There are many good examples in the Bible of this. Paul even tells us there is neither Jew or Gentile. Therefore in God’s eyes, we are all equal. Ordination of women has nothing to do with “that women’s lib thingie”. Even moresore, maybe you should consider that “women’s lib thingie” as being a good thing or else you would not have even been allowed to work outside the home. I’m glad you are happy at your church 2 blocks away. Obviously, that is where you belong.

[...] the rest of this piece at Minnesota Independent :ban on openly gay clergy, ELCA, ELCA vote on gay pastors, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, [...]

Patricia Adam,

We do read the same Bible, which also says, there is neither Jew or Greek. All are the same in God’s eyes.

As for women’s ordination, there are several women used by God in the Bible to deliver His message. The first missionaries on Resurrection Sunday were women, so God CAN and does use women to share his message…ordained and lay people! The “women’s lib thingie” you reference really has nothing to do with it. Women have been suppressed by a patriarchal society for many years, not because God commanded it, but because of some male decision. It’s more cultural than Biblical. Keep in mind that if it was not for the “women’s lib thingie” or women’s suffrage, YOU would not be able to work in a job outside the home or vote. Remember that Jesus came down harder on the religious leaders and those who judged heavily, while he hung out with the least desirables.

I’m glad that you have found a safe refuge in your church that is only 2 blocks away from the ELCA Church. That is obviously where you belong.

it seems to me that there are two major themes in the bible: 1. no one is perfect, 2. there is nothing to fear…

dr. olson said it best.”she left the lutheran church……” the church is not here to change for your convience. if you don’t like what our church believes the bible to say, then leave and start your church. elca is selling out! you have a bunch of pastors who preach using martin luther as a sermon but don’t have the guts to do what he did and stand up against small public opinion.

You are so right Goose … those who want to CHANGE the church and Scriptures are misguided – for the Scriptures are there to guide YOU. Where are the defenders of the FAITH? Members are leaving the ELCA in droves … look at the Missouri Synod – they are gaining members. The ELCA will see the same split the Episcopalians have …. and the Orthodox Church will continue to be the fasting growing church in America today since they stand faithful for Christ and defend the Scriptures. Don’t be fooled and don’t let others play on the Christian compassion you hold dear. During this whole debate – do you hear Scriptures sited to support the change they seek? The sad thing is it is too late to save the Lutheran Church, there are good Pastors trying to do so – but it is gone.

“Love thy neighbor” is not permission to have same sex relationships (beyond friendships). Love thy neighbor is a ref. to empathy–a very selfless, sophisticated, emotion. And yes, God does employ women for His use–after all, He created them. Even so, the bible does not allow for its leaders to be homo-sexual. The church’s leadership requirments are discussed in the Book of Timothy and those requirements are quite clear-even after being translatted from Greek. I can understand why ELCA members are leaving in droves.

I am truly saddened by all of this. The Bible that I have …”NEVER” looks upon homosexual behavior in a favorable way. Why did Jesus not directly address this? Perhaps it was so obvious that it was not necessary. I’m not advocating any exclusion of anyone from the ELCA but this is a behavior and lifestyle that is not healthy. I feel compassion to those individuals that have this desire but I refuse to yield on the principles I believe in and feel in my heart. The only real basis for my knowledge is based on the Bible that I was taught. I’m not going to start bending all over the place ,…taking portions of scripture and turning it around to ease the feelings of a very small group that feel the need to be justified. I feel sorry that the gay community has such a need for acceptance.

I will not stay a member of the ELCA much longer. I already do not contribute my weekly offerings to the ELCA and ask that my offerings stay completely local to my church which currently is openly against these policies (Mainly due to my pastor). If the ELCA decides in favor of the gay agenda I will leave the ELCA. I’m not alone. Folks in this forum are discussing the number of people that have left the ELCA due to no acceptance….just wait!!! The ELCA will be the church of choice for the gay community because everyone else will leave. Trust your heart. If this felt right, there would not be such an issue. This has been in discussion for 20 years now and I see no compelling reasons for acceptance. Yes, as Christians it is not up to us to make judgments against our fellow members but acceptance of a documented unacceptable behavior is another issue. What’s next, legalized prostitution? This was also covered pretty well in the Bible I have. How about adultery…and others? Should we start making exceptions for each case as long as someone feels that what they do is okay since it feels right to them?

God Bless the folks ruling on this. For they will be judged some day.

I must interject in this interesting conversation, that there are many people — humble, earnest, seeking people — with different views. And, while it feels very safe and good to say that “my” view is right because it is the determination I’ve come to, and yours is “wrong” because it’s not the same as mine, Paul gives us a good example of how we may come to different conclusions but must give each other room to live within our own convictions while not judging others for having different ones; he says that eating the meat offered to idols isn’t a problem for him, but that it is for some others, and he would not tell them to go ahead and eat it if they don’t feel it’s right, because ultimately, he doesn’t want any of us act in opposition to our truest convictions. That said, there is always (and, I think, shouid always be) room for all of us to consider that we might be wrong. That there is more to learn. That we are all saved by grace, and that whether we say we follow Paul or Apollos or Cephas or Martin Luther or anyone else, at the heart of it, we all follow Jesus, and it would be best for all of us if we could figure out how to live in unity, even with our disagreements.

I will throw into the mix the idea that the New Testament, as the Old, was written to very specific groups of people with very specific concerns and needs, and also written in a very specific social and historical climate. I appreciated Trish’s informed comment that the Timothy scripture was in response to a question of multiple wives; and, I appreciate that, generally, the issues the early church was facing in terms of their quandaries were quite different (often) than the ones we face today. A larger question, I think, is, how do we dig deep enough to find the core message Jesus was promoting, to understand his “mission statement” if you will, and begin there in discerning carefully for ourselves how to solve our own, current quandaries.

For me, I hear ringing loud and clear the message of love, of remembering the heart of the law before the letter of the law, of finding that core message that God was (and always will be) going for and extrapolating — taking it as far as we can go, instead of using the law as an excuse to only go as far as we have to. Jesus said, you’ve been told to forgive seven times; i say, forgive seventy times seven. If someone asks for your coat, give him your cloak as well. The law says you can only take an eye if an eye has been taken (take no more than has been taken from you); but, now, set your mind to doing even more — turn the other cheek. Don’t take anything back. Don’t take vengeance, but love. Because, in that action, in that amazing offering Jesus gave us as he put the soldier’s ear back on and walked with no resistance to that cross, he set our goal — love until you can love no more, and then, keep loving.

I wish all of you — all of us — with opinions in this conversation, peace, unity, and deeper understanding!

To all observers: please do not be surprised that people under the same umbrella of a religion (namely Christianity) disagree. True there are some individuals that are too hard hearted, and/or struggle with anything that veers from the interpretations of scripture they’ve been taught all their lives. Yes there are some who over simplify Jesus’ call to love as a blanket approval of all conduct.
Many of us are struggling to distinguish what is right here. God’s love for all people is not in question, how God may wish to challenge our instincts is. Of course the Gay debate over-emphasizes one small theological battle over what is right. I mostly hope we can get on to addressing the inadequately challenged sins of humanity, the behaviors that are not villainized — but should be.
Relgion is full of problems, Jesus is a different story.

We’ve run into an issue where there is not enough mass appeal for the masses to look the other way as they do with so many other behaviors. But there is a catch, something I get hung up on. Very few people openly argue, in the church, that rampant greed is fine, or that open racism is swell, or that violent abuse is justifiable, or even that self abuse is okay. See the difference here is whether homosexuality belongs in the category of things we agree are wrong, or not. Maybe we’d be better off as a church if we could agree that homosexual relations are forbidden. (Keeping in mind that no Christian should be able to argue that this means automatic damnation for anyone.) But if we agree that homosexuality is actually fine with God, then must we call into question whether or not God approves of the other sins listed above? That’s what’s at issue, people are afraid that re-examining how we understand sexuality will mean all otherwise assumed evils are up for debate. That, and many people just cant’ get their head around homosexuality, so it’s easy to villainize what you can’t relate to. I’ve had to face that reality in myself.

Norah, your comment are worded well and appear from the heart. Bless you. I personally fear we are being tested and failing miserably. We have to remain strong in our faith. Now is not the time to waver and make concessions when things get tough.

Our country is quickly falling to atheist attacks at all corners. Our children can no longer speak of religion in schools, our Nations Capital is being asked to remove all references to God in all our documents and buildings…as well as in every state facility….all of which are gifts from God as well as this blessed country. We’re now seeing direct attacks on our faith.

I understand what you are saying but the bigger picture must be looked at. As the ELCA caves in and begins to implode, it will affect the few remaining larger christian groups to do the same. When does end?

Sometimes you have to just say no. Ultimately we all have to live and be judged by our decisions in life. If yout heart is truly telling you this is okay then that is your decision. I personally know in my heart this is not Gods plan.

Happy Pagan wrote: “Maybe one day the church – and its members – will actually stand for peace, compassion, and justice instead of anger, hatred, and bigotry.” Straight out of the UN handbook; can be said, also, for the “Humanist Manifesto.” Where has the church been on the issue of abortion? Certainly they lack compassion and justice for the innocent among us in that department. It isn’t even debated (too politically incorrect). The church has become complicit in enacting the agendas set forth from certain radical left-wing groups for many years. It has been a slow process but they are certainly gaining ground, enabled by “feel-good” attitudes that are merely symbolism over substance. I see little love exhibited toward those who disagree with you; you preach tolerance but are intolerant of anyone who doesn’t agree with your values. Can we say those “right-wing, bigoted radicals,” i.e., James Dobson, Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc? My Bible ALSO says we are not to judge. Isn’t it strange how people can pick up on that instruction from the Bible, but pay no attention when Paul states that homosexuality is an abomination? Are not our bodies the temple of God? Then, anything we do whether eating, drinking, smoking, or anal sex is certainly harmful to God’s temple.

My spouse and I left an ELCA church over this issue and others: the ELCA is so liberal in a host of fields that we no longer recognize it as the church we have known since we met in a ELCA college, nor can we accept the seachanges. We stopped sending any more contributions to them when we found that our super conservative college (when we were there five decades ago) was “celebrating” gay and lesbians in a new club for those students of differing sexual inclinations.

In the intervening years since we were students, we have both worked with or known in a recreational setting a number of gays/lesbians. We have always believed in toleration, but their sexual activities did not warrant our “celebrating” them. It is our belief that active homosexuality is NOT acceptable according to the Bible, but that we are admonished to “hate the sin, love the sinner.” I would not hate or shun any person “born different,” and being sexually different is to me a lot like being born with a physical anomaly, like an affinity alcoholism, deficits in one or more senses, etc. We accept the child born blind, but we don’t “celebrate” or seek blindness for anyone else!

Sadly, the ELCA has so loosened its former standards that abortion is now acceptable, political correctness is “in,” and people of the faith resisting the changes are called bigots and worse. It is hard to tell our old ELCA church from the liberal Unitarian Church a relative attends!

I am glad that my spouse and I found a Missouri Synod Church not far from our home, one which is so much more in sync with our “old fashioned” (Biblical?) beliefs that we are sorry we did not look for it years earlier. It is growing by leaps and bounds, with a large number of new members joining every quarter, including an amazing number of new immigrant African refugees, who have found their way to our welcoming congregation’s open arms. We support a pregnancy care center countering abortion, (which I consider the most egregious sin any church can accept!), reach out to seniors in senior centers, and send lay missionaries to third world countries, as well as large quantities of cash to foreign missions in places like India. We are far too busy doing the Lord’s work in these and many other ways, to spend time focusing on sexual deviancy in all its rainbow colors and congratulating ourselves on embracing it, whether in the pulpit or in the pews. I submit that those who do so would find themselves much happier with the Unitarians, where they will likely be joyfully welcomed.

I was a born and raised Lutheran. I joined a church with a “gay’ minister when I moved to NC. After a few years I could no longer reconcile his open homosexuality, (his partner is the choir director),with what I feel the Bible says on this subject. When I told him why I was leaving, he told me that “we can get around all the passages referring to homosexuality except the one in Romans”. Among other things he said I decided that I did not want to go to a church that’s leader is trying to get around passages in the Bible. I believe we are to love the sinner and not the sin. This is a sad day for the Lutheran church. Oh, by the way, this minister is not one of the ninety five “brave” ministers.

Even atheists (from former USSR countries) are laughing at us, the church.

Homosxuality? In church? and you are preaching to US?

My husband is a lifelong Lutheran and already has his letter ready to send to the president of our congregation asking that he be removed from membership in the Elca and that he is leaving the church. He has been following this issue for many years. His study of the issue from a biblical standpoint leads him to the conclusion that homosexual behavior is against biblical teachings and that a pastor cannot choose to ignore biblical teachings they do not agree with. Like some of your other posters, he feels that a special interest groups who actually represent a very small part of the elca are trying to force it on everyone. I agree with another poster that members will be leaving in large numbers if this passes. I was a baptist until we got married. I don’t think they allow this issue to define who they are and are not constantly having to debate it. Good luck ELCA. Your rolls have been decling anyway and I think you will lose 10 members for every one you gain if this is passed. Looks like our family needs to start visiting a Missouri synod church.

To Patricia Adams:

I suspect you’re not a real person expressing genuine ideas at all, but some frat boy trying to stir up wrath.

But on the off chance you really ARE expressing beliefs and not being sardonic in the hope of getting laughs, I remind you that Jesus Christ said in real words that Mary of Bethany had chosen the better part in leaving the housework behind and taking her place among the men who were discussing gospel and ministry. How sad that you have chosen the lesser part for yourself.

Jesus NEVER MENTIONED homosexuality. If it had been that important, surely He would have said so. The Ten Commandments do not mention homosexuality. Surely if it were a sin, it would be listed there. There are only seven passaged in the entire Bible that seem to address homosexuality, and five of them are in the OT, the rules of which Jesus told us didn’t apply any longer.

Jesus did say, “Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these, my brothers, you have done it unto me.” In case you don’t understand what that means, it means that every hateful thing you do to another person, you’re doing to Jesus.

Jesus also said, “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with that judgement with which you judge shall you be judged.”

In case you don’t understand what THAT means, let me be the first to tell you that God will be judging you the same way you judge others. So when you get to Judgment Day, don’t expect compassion – you didn’t show any. Don’t expect acceptance – you didn’t offer it. Don’t expect love or forgiveness – you withheld both and thought quite highly of yourself for it. Based on your post here alone, you can unfortunately expect God to be condescending, snide, spiteful, and sanctimonious. And when He gives you the back of His hand, he’ll be using the other hand to welcome in everyone you’ve rejected.

If homosexuals are allowed in the church, where will this end?

Will greedy people be allowed? God hates greed.
Will prideful people be allowed? God hates pride.
Will judgmental people be allowed? God will judge as you judge.
Will alcoholic people be allowed? God hates addiction.
Will people who abuse workers be allowed?/ God hates those who abuse others.
Will divorced people be allowed? God hates divorce.

Where will this end? Will the churches eventually be filled with nothing but sinners?

some one please show where the bible says “homosexuality is ok”? feel free to used an arabic or greek translation. not interpretation, not what you think, but rather a literal translation where christ says he’s good with homosexuality.

p.s. Tim,
the church is filled with sinners. every sin you stated God wants us to get rid of so if we use your logic and homosexuality to your list………..anyway, you get the picture.

For those who think in terms of US/THEM in this debate -
We gay “sinners” commit sins as everyone else does. Period.
“For we are saved by Grace through Faith” my Lutheran pastor taught me some 25 years ago. Loving (love, not just sex) another person = sin in God’s eye?! Sounds like *people* are now determining that God’s Grace is reserved for THEM but not US. Fortunately, forgiveness is granted to all, even those who think Grace is given for themselves and others just like them. WE are also praying for YOU.

I’m reading some other posts here, and yours, Tim, I want to address specifically — because I think it’s unfortunate to lump all homosexual behavior into the same category, as we would all heterosexual behavior. Isn’t it true that, in both arenas, there is a vast spectrum of behavior? That some relationships, gay or straight, are loving, compassionate, monogamous, communicative, faithful, faith-filled ones, and other are unloving, uncompassionate, greedy, lascivious, non-monogamous, lust-based, uncommunicative, unfaithful, and faithless? And the spectrum in-between. The argument is not, for me, that homosexuality should be lumped in with greed, pride, judgementalism, abuse… because, I don’t think it’s that simple. I think it’s more about the heart of the matter, and that fundamentally, God, and Jesus, call us to love. Love in word, and deed, and action, and truth. Love of God and love of neighbor. And, if two men or two women are able to live lives of love, with all the compassion, generosity, faithfulness, and commitment that entails, I feel in my heart that I must leave room for the possibility that God would be much more pleased with that relationship than an unhealthy heterosexual one. It is as big a spectrum as we human beings are. I simply find myself coming back to the still small voice, which tells me to love. And, wherever I find love (the true, real kind), I suspect God is there, smiling, and saying, yeah, this is what I mean.

Goose,

For me, it’s not about homosexuality. It’s not that Jesus said, “Oh, and, I think people of the same sex should love each other.” It’s that Jesus said, “Love one another.” (By the way, I’m straight.) So, as I mentioned above, if any relationship or moment (as with Jesus choosing to pull the animal out of the pit on the Sabbath even though the law stated you weren’t supposed to work) is fundamentally based in love, in generosity and kindness instead of selfish motives, it is in line with Jesus’ message of love, serving others, being kind, meek, forgiving, whatever it is. And, if the root behavior is fundamentally unloving — selfish, hurtful, unthoughtful, unkind, whatever — it isn’t in line with Jesus’ message.

This, I think is where the difference of opinion lies: some look at the few scriptures which mention “homosexuality” (though, that word is, of course, a translation of the original Greek or Hebrew, so we might do better to find an expert on the original language and context) and they see it lumped in with all these unloving words and behaviors, and they say that homosexuality in all cases must be a sin. Others look at those scriptures and see the point being that unloving, selfish behavior was going on, and the writer was instructing the early church that that kind of behavior is a sin, and that obviously there was some homosexual abuse or selfishness or lust going on, as well as the lasciviousness and greed and whatnot — and that, then, whether you are homosexual or heterosexual, if you are being abusive and selfish and unloving and damaging to someone else, you are sinning; but that overarchingly homosexuality is not always in that category, just as hetero- isn’t; that what was being talked about in scripture was a list of unloving, selfish, other-damaging behaviors that as a church we were being instructed to turn away from, and that we should rather nurture loving relationships. Jesus doesn’t distinguish in his words between whom we can/should love in what way and whom we shouldn’t. He simply says we should love. He never got into this debate at all. His debate was with being unloving and unmerciful.

That’s what I know, Goose… or, what I can add.

LEAVE…BYE!

Hi Norah,

My post was satire. In other words, people can be in a perpetual state of greedy behavior, addiction, perpetually prideful, and they are accepted in church, often as pastors. Jesus actually said if you divorce and remarry you are in a perpetual state of adultery, but these fundamentalists let remarried people be ministers, etc. They let EVERYONE in, the greedy, the prideful, the remarried, but they can’t let people who are homosexuals in. If they apply the SAME requirements to prideful people as they apply to people who are homosexuals, they would expel all these people from their midst. But they don’t. Because they are hypocrites. Modern Pharisees.

many people are prideful, greedy and have addictions. the difference is they ask christ for help to remove these things from thier lives to bring them closer to God. homosexuals aren’t. they are saying change christ’s words for us.

bottom line is the elca leaders need to grab themselves by the you know what (there own not the persons next to them) and say if you don’t like what we stand for there’s the exit and don’t let the door hit you in the back side as you leave. the are plenty of other denominations that are will to to accept your way of life.

p.s. by the way tim……jesus did not say ” if you divorce and remarry you are in a perpetual state of adultery”. that would be rush limbaugh

Goose,

Don’t know your Bible? Matthew 19, verse 8: Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” Now, if that person marries another and continues to have sexual relations with that person, they are in a state of continual commission of adultery.

That’s what it says, goose. Spin away, that is what it says.

And homosexuals aren’t saying “change Christ’s words” because there is no text in the Bible where Jesus mentions homosexuals. None. Don’t know your Bible?

And I know lots of greedy prideful people who are making absolutely no effort to change and they are welcomed with open arms and never rebuked by those in the church. I have been a delegate to annual meetings and have seen pompous denomination presidents reduce people to tears.

Entitle to your own opinion, not your own facts. Fact: Jesus never mentioned homosexuals in the text. Fact: Jesus said divorce followed by remarriage is adultery in the text. Fact: churches pick and choose who they want to exclude.

I

i never said christ uses the word homosexual.

matt 19 v. 4 “have you not read HE from the beginning made male and female”. christ does not mention homosexuality because it has already been established in jewish law that it is it sin. matt is writing to the jewish people. why do you think his gospel first.

and you are right. there are several pompous presidents and they should be ousted. how the got there amazes me.

Keep shopping Dr. Olson. You know there has just got to be a church out there that will give you the nod on anything that spins your beanie.

Ever tried the McChurch? It comes with fries!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F-I0uzlXcU

Some of you blithely comment that “Jesus never talked about homosexuality.” How can you ignore those Scripture passages where God makes clear that he will judge conduct that is “detestable” to Him, and a consequence of our sinful desires of the heart and shameful lusts? (Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:18-30). When you hear our Lord say that the place of the sexually immoral “will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur” (Revelation 21:8), how can you be so convinced that He is not including those who engage in homosexual conduct? How do you foreclose absolutely the possibility that this behavior is contrary to God’s will for our lives? If you harbor even the smallest doubt, is it not the better course to endure whatever suffering that you presume celibacy will bring, in order to be certain that you are living in worshipful obedience to Him?

Goose,

Ok, here is the exact line from your earlier post:

homosexuals aren’t. they are saying change christ’s words for us.

You are saying they want to change Christ’s words. He never referred to them.

Secondly, you completely dodged the fact that Jesus said divorce and remarriage is continual adultery, which you lectured me was not in the Bible.

Like I said, Pick and choose Christians.

tim,
now you know why your are former delegate.

amen

Tim,
Get a clue Tim. Goose never lectured you or dodged your question. In fact his answer was more theologically based then your “pick a scripture and make it fit” approach.

John

[...] Ninety-five Lutherans come out [...]

A lifetime of good works in the ministry and current cultural feelings does not change the Word of God. Wondering if all the good works and human consenus will be enough for these ministers’ salvation. Please know there are Lutherans out there that would NOT make Martin Luther spin in his grave (or shake his head in heaven as the true case may be.)

I can’t understand why people are so afraid of gay people? What is the big deal? Where is this fear coming from?

This thread has moved from allowing gay people in a COMMITTED relationship from leading a congregation to damnation of gay people altogether. The ELCA has already moved beyond this!
Quoting Leviticus to suit your own needs while skipping over everything else about clothing, food, and everything that made sense millennia ago demonstrates twisting Biblical text.
This same kind of thinking was used to support slavery and men “owning” their wives. So, who is going to back and live this way? Lutherans? I don’t think so. Even the Catholics who Luther believed were not interpreting the Bible correctly have moved beyond this fear. The argument about “ignoring what the Bible says” therefore applies to us ALL.
Jesus said much more about hypocrites than homosexuals.

i would love to have the bishops come to my 9th grade sunday school class and justify biblically how “pastor dave” and his friend “eric” can have sex. but that won’t happen because our bishops are a bunch spineless whimps who are only concerned about their retire plan,

bottomline, if your pastor “dave” is having sexual relations with choir director “eric” and your still ok with him serving you communion (least of your worries now is swine flu), forgiving your sins and say the benediction, you’re not forgiving, you’re one sick puppy.

“Jesus said much more about hypocrites than homosexuals.”

Funny thing, then, that being a hypocrite is so prevalent among Kristians.

2 Timothy 4: 1-4

1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

I think Romans 1:27 is pretty clear about what God thinks of homosexuality and in verse 32 about those who condone such behavior.

Such a disingenous quote from Zilllart and Frost about their daughter deciding what church she would belong to based on the welcome gay people receive….what about being fed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ not some feel-good social club.

Amen Bjorn14!!

Goose and John,

Still waiting for an explanation:

Jesus says in Matthew that divorce and remarriage is adultery. Yet your church allows people who have divorced and remarried, some multiple times, to happily be in the congregation.

But I won’t get an explanation from either of you. Just another dismissive put-down from pick & choose Christians.

Matthew 6:24
“No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”

It is clear which master ELCA is serving.

“It is clear which master ELCA is serving.”

Kinda reminds me of Mac Hammond & Living Word…..

Leviticus 18:22 (King James Version) Thou SHALT NOT lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is ABOMINATION.

Romans 1:27 (King James Version) And likewise also THE MEN, LEAVING THE NATURAL USE OF THE WOMAN, BURNED IN THEIR LUST ONE TOWARD ANOTHER; MEN WITH MEN WORKING THAT WHICH IS UNSEEMLY, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 (King James Version) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, FOR THEM THAT DEFILE THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine…

Pretty plain Scripture, in my opinion. No worse than any other sin, but one must:
Seek forgiveness by repenting -> turn from sin -> receive forgiveness.

tim,
bottom line (no pun intended) , we are all sinners. name one church who thought it was ok to commit adultery, to be addicted, or over weight? the church says those things are wrong yet come and ask for forgiveness let us help you over come so you can get closer to God. the church is now saying, not only will we accept homosexuals -as they should like other sinners- but it is not a sin and continue your behavior. any one who thinks God putt your male pastor on this earth to have sex with another male is not only theologically misguided but your one sick puppy.

p.s. the good thing is the least of my worries is getting swine flu at church.