A day of close calls: ELCA braves a tornado and a tough vote on LGBT issues

A meteorologist said the tornado came out of nowhere.

The only cross on the giant ELCA church across the street was not untouched, it was not knocked off–the cross was left hanging upside down.

Minutes later, a statement that condones sex between people whose genitals are the same is passed by 1 vote.

The winning margin: 66.6 percent. Really? Precisely THAT number? What are the chances?

I suppose if a person were inclined to believe that there is a living God who cares enough to warn his people in advance to avoid behavior that is bad for them, they might take it as a sign.

But it is probably just a coincidence.

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The Tornado didn’t hit them. the vote was 66.7 not your suposed dream of a number and you are reading just a bit too much into this. If you beleave that this was a warning thats fine. I would think that maybe it was weather and nothing more. I might point out that this was a more than majority vote as counted by most election boards. The fact was that it was put to a 2/3rds majority vote is equal to a constitutional amendment level of that equal to the US constitution. I am inclined to beleave that ELCA has a few more level headed people associated with the church than the Catholics and most of the other powerful religions now. Considering that I am a gay Catholic and have been discriminated against for my entire life I am looking more closly at other religions that would be more inclusive of people like me. I have been in a 12 year very commited relationship with my partner and we share the same values of family, life and morality that, I would hope, everone else in your church does. So if you want to talk about a coincidence then lets look at my situation.

It is coincidental that I want the same things you have in a fair society. Nothing more nothing less. Coincidentaly that also means that I dont want anything more than you have. This including the ever elusive, “special rights” talke about by the far right alarmists, and homophobes. Just the same rights.

Thank you for your time in starting this thread, but please look at what you are posting before you post it. Consider the impact of what you are posting and the wrong statements you are making from a very narow minded point of view.

God’s word is clear in five passages in the new and old testaments regarding homosexual relationships. I have been an ELCA member and sinner for 67 years and believe that forgiveness is for all sinners including homosexuals if they are repentant. However, condoning clergy homosexuals is a serious matter that goes against I Timothy 3 and God’s warnings about homosexual lifestyle. It is sad that the ELCA who teaches the authority of the Bible would make this decision and ignore what God has to say. I would prefer to be faithful to God’s living word than belong to the ELCA, and I feel the ELCA church has betrayed its members and God’s authority.

Sincerely and regretfully,

Darla Stojevich
8505 Bessemer Street
Duluth, MN 55808
dford2448@yahoo.com

Author John Piper (Desiring God) has a great post on this here:

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=11043

[...] A Baptist pastor says a recent tornado means that Jesus thinks homosexuals are destroying Lutheranism. Lutherans disagree. [...]

Well, personally I blame myself. At precisely 3:12 pm I was walking by the Convention Center, and started thinking of some really naughty thoughts.

If only I was walking on the other side of the street…

[...] can make decisions as they see fit.  But doesn’t it seem kind of like a sign from above that this would happen right before it was debated? Two close calls marked the third day of the General [...]

Sheesh…. some of these people sound like Jerry Fallwell who blamed 9/11 on America’s alleged failures. Let them anathemize and hate all they want … no one will change their closed minds. But if history is any indication, in 50 years or less those who live to rethink will regret their opposition to the first steps toward equality and the future. There have always been those who quoted scripture to justify polygamy, slavery, unjust wars, child labor and other evils. Meanwhile, the conscience of the church moves ahead.

Drake 33,

I respect the fact that you take responsibility for God’s wrath, but I must horn in and take some of the credit (or blame) for His acting out in anger. My continual pride was the cause of the Katrina storm. My continual judging of others was the cause of 9/11. My spouting of the ridiculous “love the sinner love the sin” was the cause of Columbine. My greed and refusal to share was the cause of the current economic Depression. My hatred of those “not like me” was the cause of all the deaths and destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan. So it is no surprise that, since I live in Minneapolis, that God would send me yet another warning in the form of a August storm. When, I ask, have we ever had a storm in August? When, I ask, have we ever had a tornado “come out of nowhere”, except for Rogers and Hugo and I won’t take the blame for those? So folks, the next time something bad happens, yep, it’s God sending me another warning.

God’s wrath is evident!

Of course the tornado was a miracle displaying God’s judgment. Whoever heard of a thunderstorm in Summer? Say God, why did you hit the church instead of the gay bar? I guess you just missed. Well, nobody’s perfect.

The Holy Scriptures are the inerrant, infallible Holy Word of God. The Bible is very clear historically about God’s wrath and that He is not a respector of persons. In the Holy Bible God tells us that justice and righteousness supersedes sacrifice. But we are to serve God wth love and temper all that we do with love and to never comprise God’s word on matters of righteousness to make others comfortable or inclusive,or justified to continue on in their unrighteousness living. You cannot love someone by embracing their lifestyle, but you do love someone by embracing the whole word of God. Our children and their children, need to know that we are leaving them with righteous examples of holy boldness in how we handle these issues of immorality. We are to be a living testimony to the power of God’s Living Word in triumph over sin, sickness and death. Homosexuality is unrighteous and perverted in every way shape or fashion. God our Heavenly Father is very clear about this and expects us to reprimand and rebuke one another to Holiness and God states if we are lukewarm on matters of righteousness ‘He will spew us out of His mouth.’

homosexuality is an abomination and our children need to know this and Im dedicating my life to train warriors for christ in christian love .This is the beginng of something big for all who love the LORD AND THE LIFE TO COME- FOR ALL WHO REPENT FROM SIN AND BELIEVE ON hIS VERY PRECIOUS HOLY NAME JESUS!!!!!

To the third poster…

1. Right on the elca.org website voting results the vote won by 66.66666 repeating result. Rounding takes it to 66.7%. (first vote) http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Office-of-the-Secretary/ELCA-Governance/Churchwide-Assembly/Actions.aspx

2. The Tornado hit nothing but the church and the convention center courtyard where ELCA was meeting (at that exact time) to further discuss this matter. The timing and location along with the vote’s numerical outcome all point to a sign that God is not happy.

3. Gay rights is a societal issue and your arguments of fair treatment should be made to the politicians. The Word of God us not up for debate. There are plenty of things that are “legal or acceptable” in today’s society that are clearly not acceptable in God’s eyes.

In today’s society people are told not to judge one another which leads to an attitude of “You can’t judge me”. The church is not judging gays, God is. As with any other sin (and we all sin) if you repent of your sin you will be forgiven. At issue is the fact that living an openly homosexual lifestyle is an unrepentant form of sin. To be forgiven for your sin you must repent. You cannot truly repent while you are continuing to live the lifestyle. We can not allow our leaders who preach God’s Word to openly defy God’s Word.

Zach, very well written. You are speaking the truth, I love it!!

What’s next!?? Let’s vote that it will be ok for pastors to commit adultery!! And then, let’s throw in there that person that preforms abortions for a living can be a pastor to!!! God’s word never changes. If you want to ignore what the Bible says, I guess enjoy your life here on earth the best you can, because you won’t have eternal life with God, you’ll have it where there is gnashing of teeth.

Sin is sin. This is from the Bible in case you don’t know: 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

No, the bible is the word of God written by man and rather poorly. It has holes and contradictions and if anything is clear it is that humanity is very confused about just what it does say and how to react to it.
The beauty of the bible is its reflection on life and goodness and purity and hope amidst tragedy, fear and inevitable death. Those who ascribe certainty and hang on particular phrases as if they were direct quotations of God commit an error of immense proportions. They are the haughiest suggesting they have knowledge of the divine and then having the nerve to point their fingers at others, directing them on the correct path.
Thank God that 2/3 of our pastors are on the right track honoring the inclusiveness of Christ.

Dave

Some people need a convenient boogeyman to rally against, distracts them from any self-examination.

People like this are so perfect they have nothing else to do.

“The Word of God us not up for debate. ”

Is too.

How can you possibly say that with a serious face?

All of you who are so clever in defending homosexuality could you please tell me what you do with the Word of God? Do you ignore it? Do you tear out the pages that you don’t like? Not one of you has given an answer to several comments about what God’s Word says. I don’t expect a nonChristian to give an answer but for those of you who call yourselves Lutherans (which I assume means you are a professinng Christian) please tell me how you understand such passages as Romans 1:26-27; Leviticua 18:22 and I Corinthians 6:9 to name a few. Don’t get me wrong – none of us are saying we are “without sin”; we are no better than any of you. I wish the Bible didn’t say anything about “lust” but it does. But I’m not going to ignore it or tear it out of my Bible or retranslate it or ask the Church to vote to “excuse” it because I have trouble with it. We all have our weaknesses but ignoring or changing God’s Word does not make it right, especially in His Eyes or at Judgement.

There is simply no Love quite like Christian Hate.

Fools.

Don asks, “All of you who are so clever in defending homosexuality could you please tell me what you do with the Word of God? Do you ignore it? Do you tear out the pages that you don’t like?”

WHY NOT? HETEROSEXUALS IGNORE IT. ALL OF IT.

So I ask Don: If Heterosexual Christians are allowed to ignore the parts of the bible that pertain to YOUR sexuality, and you do just that, why oh why would you expect Gay people not to ignore it as well? Aren’t you all supposed to be setting a Christ-like example? Does not your God command you to stone to death non-virgins? And adulterers? You would have to kill 60% of Christians, ya know. And where are your women keeping their menstruation huts these days? For aren’t your women banned to such huts by your God because they are unclean? Christians are so transparent in their motives it wouldn’t surprise me to find out you’re actually ghosts. If the laws of the old testament do not apply to Heterosexuals, they do not apply to Homosexuals. See how that works? But to drag God thorugh the mud for your own bigotry and agenda… You will answer to God for that.

You see, Don, this is precisely why Christainity has become the punch-line to almost every joke these days. You rally against the very Gay people you created while abandoning what the bible commands of Heterosexual sexuality. Wow. That makes things might easy for straights, huh? Let’s disregard everything the bible commands of US, but still hold our Gay children accountable to it. Hey, let’s go one step further and let’s spend our lives abusing, murdering, torturing, degrading and dehumanizing the very Gay children WE created, and let’s do it in the name of God. Hell, let’s even go FUTHER and demand that our Government participated in thsi abuse as well! Wow! We f’ing ROCK!

Gosh, Don. I love you. But I REALLY hate your sins. And make no mistake, Don: Your sins of abusing, murdering, torturing, degrading and dehumanizing the very Gay children WE created will be taken FAR more seriously by God than the genitalia of another’s beloved.

You sorry, sad, misguided fool. May God have mercy on your soul. If you’ve even got one at this point.

Please, let’s not let a discussion about a serious issue devolve into name-calling.

It’s always amazing to me that many people think that Christians should be “tolerant” of all others’ viewpoints, yet those very same people don’t seem to want to “tolerate” the viewpoint of a Christian who professes to follow, albeit imperfectly, God’s word as expressed in the Bible.

Yes, the Bible was put into writing by imperfect humans, but it is the inspired word of God. Those things which seem to contradict don’t mean it’s all wrong. And, while there are some parts I may not particularly like (such as some of Paul’s teachings about women in leadership), I don’t throw out the whole thing.

If you don’t agree with what God says and how he wants the church to act, you certainly are not required to be part of it. Jesus gives an invitation to all but requires no one to accept it. However, if that invitation is accepted, there are decisions to make about how to live. Some of those decisions could be very difficult. Jesus promises a lot, but I don’t recall anything where he said it would be easy to be Christian.

IT DESERVES TO BE REPEATED:

So I ask Don: If Heterosexual Christians are allowed to ignore the parts of the bible that pertain to YOUR sexuality, and you do just that, why oh why would you expect Gay people not to ignore it as well? Aren’t you all supposed to be setting a Christ-like example? Does not your God command you to stone to death non-virgins? And adulterers? You would have to kill 60% of Christians, ya know. And where are your women keeping their menstruation huts these days? For aren’t your women banned to such huts by your God because they are unclean? Christians are so transparent in their motives it wouldn’t surprise me to find out you’re actually ghosts. If the laws of the old testament do not apply to Heterosexuals, they do not apply to Homosexuals. See how that works? But to drag God thorugh the mud for your own bigotry and agenda… You will answer to God for that.

You see, Don, this is precisely why Christainity has become the punch-line to almost every joke these days. You rally against the very Gay people you created while abandoning what the bible commands of Heterosexual sexuality. Wow. That makes things might easy for straights, huh? Let’s disregard everything the bible commands of US, but still hold our Gay children accountable to it. Hey, let’s go one step further and let’s spend our lives abusing, murdering, torturing, degrading and dehumanizing the very Gay children WE created, and let’s do it in the name of God. Hell, let’s even go FUTHER and demand that our Government participated in thsi abuse as well! Wow! We f’ing ROCK!

Let’s not have the pot calling the kettle black here. We have all sinned! Whether straight or gay, we have to acknowledge that we have sinned and turn away from our ways to follow His Way. As long as we do not, then we break His Laws and Teachings. We can say and do whatever we want but it would not change His Word, which is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If we truly believe that He is our Creator, and that He has a purpose for us, then we should pay heed to what He said. In this matter, regarding homosexuality, His Word is clear: No! The only outcome for this is death. As for those who proclaim His Word but compromise on other issues, the outcome is the same unless you turn away from your sins and walk in His Way. You will fall, but because you continually desire to be with Him, and keep trying to put sin out of your life He will have mercy if you call out to Him and acknowledge your failures and ask for strength to put sin out. As for those who refuse to acknowledge His Word but instead seek to justify your actions by pointing out the sins of others, you shall share the same fate as The Accuser, who is The Adversary and who mocks The Creator. I have no more words for you. For those who really want to follow Him into eternal life, and who are willing to do what He says, I recommend that you start by believing what He saysI’m not suggesting that you become a member of another Christian denomination or Jewish denomination, but to become a member of His Family by accepting His Word into your innermost being regardless of what your clergy tells you. In spite of all the variances and corruption in the bibles that you read, the message is still quite clear: repent, immerse yourself in Him and you shall receive His Set-Apart Spirit. So when you truly start studying His Word using different translations, be prepared to discover that not all your have been taught is true, and that much Truth has been covered. And the first is that The Creator’s set-apart name is Yahweh and that He walked this earth and sacrificed Himself as Yahushua, Yahweh’s Annointed One whose name means “Yahweh Saves”. If you did not know this before, then with whom was your relationship with? You may have called out to Him by various names and He still blessed and protected you, graciously allowing you to drink from His well of goodness. His mercy is wide and His love deep, but when He reveals Himself by His name as the owner of the well, would you address Him by another name other than Yahweh? But now that you do, the rest is up to you! Perhaps after you acknowledge Him as He revealed Himself (and not how we want to perceive Him) the best way to know Him better is to observe His 10 Commandments. We are so willing to implement the last six of the Commandments because it concerns relationships between each of us, but we conveniently forget the first four that concern our relationship with Him! Seek to understand Him and He will reveal Himself through the first four Commandments. Forget what your preacher tells you about the Law being done away with! Seek with your heart and mind, and be prepared to know your Creator.

For the comment directly above from “Tim O’Theos”:
How did Jesus direct his apostles to pray? Did it begin – “Dear Yahweh in Heaven” ?

Regarding the tornado:
How many years was it since the last one?
Which church building did it hit?
What was damaged?
Was the cross on the steeple left hanging upside-down?
What was the final vote tally? 66.6666666666666666666 repeating 6s to infinity.
What is the Father’s perfect number?

Answer these questions for yourself and then draw your own conclusion.

“In this matter, regarding homosexuality, His Word is clear: No! The only outcome for this is death. ”

If you wait long enough, that’s pretty much the outcome for everything, isn’t it!

Dave:

Regarding post immediately preceding…

The comment was clearly addressing the second death spelled out in Revelation not the first death we all must face.

You can be born once and die twice (finito) or you can be born twice and die just once and go on to eternal life with the living God.

This guy cried out to Yahweh and at the end……he did get saved. Yahoo!

http://doodiepants.com/2009/06/02/bizarre-video-of-arrest-rant-taze-escape-awesome/