ELCA eliminates ban on openly gay and lesbian clergy

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Thus said the lord, who is this people that call me by My Name, and not keep my commandments,who bends the truth like a rubber band to fit thy ways, thy heart has become calloused,thy eyes are shaped as the serpent that beguiled eve, and thy ways are not spoke of, thy law is not mine law and nothing shall beseech you.

when will we see the tricks of that old serpent, its so obvious the firery darts, firt is was molestation of the children in the catholic chruchs,and now the chruches are and most have lowered the standards on the foundations of who christ is and what God creations are. Can we not see past our flesh, destroy the chruch and the leaders and satan plant seeds of no validation, but for those that know that they know and will not be moved on the true teachings of christ when will we stand and unite and say enough is enough like paul with the chruches. The new bibles they are creating, changing God’s words, little by little and bit by bit, no satan has already lost, but what about souls that are being lost because of what the lutheran chruch is doing. One pastor said his chruch grew when he ordained Anita Hill, of course it did, the flesh is weak and sin grows therein, do children like being corrected, they run to the parent that does not chastise them and the favor grows for that parent. How is it people are right and the Bible is wrong, we did we go to pleasing man instead of God. For they shall be lovers of themself, men unto men and women unto women this is an abomination unto God.

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[...] ELCA eliminates ban on openly gay and lesbian clergy - Minnesota Independent: News. Politics. Media. [...]

I am disappointed that our ELCA leaders have given in to the world. The Bible is quite clear that homosexuality is a sin. To condone sin and to allow openly gay/lesbian to stand in the pulpit and preach God’s word while they live in prideful sin is disturbing. Our culture demands tolerance, yet if tolerance means accepting sin, I will not be a part of this. Love the sinner – Hate the sin. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. If this is all in the name of membership, then they will loose many including mine.
Sincerely,

Larry in Davenport

I am a Christian and I know that God does not operate through the human vote. That vote is null and void. It is unchristian. God is not a democrat. He works through His written word only.

Amulike S K Ngeliama

The votes this week will split the church — Everyone I have spoken with this morning that currently attends an ELCA church is leaving, including my family.

“My Father is love.
My Mother is love.
My Prophet is love.
My God is love.
I am a child of love.
I have come only to speak of love.”

Yesterday’s vote was a vote of love for the LGBT community, and one that should be happily celebrated!

The ELCA has been on the brink of moving in this direction for a long time. Perhaps this is the point where the people who truly wish to follow Jesus will pack up and move to a church that actually sees him as Lord. It is compelling that the ELCA seminary has been turning out “clergy” who are not even born again Christians. Is it not consistent that with the history of the ELCA that they now have a delegation capable of such corruption. Wake up O sleepers!!!

If you are a Christian, but not a Lutheran, then find someplace where democracy doesn’t exist in the church. Catholicism works this way and may be a good fit.

When / how do you separate the sinner from the sin? Is the alcoholic who doesn’t want to change her ways not worthy of forgiveness because she won’t change her ways? The man who is emotionally abusive to his wife? The person who continues to overeat and “defiles” the body as a temple to suppress years of pain? There’s usually a clear reason for something to be called a “sin” because of the damage it causes.
However, it sounds like the gay person who loves another person and wishes to share a life together isn’t worthy of forgiveness. Because they don’t repent and change their ways are they not worth forgiveness and understanding? Where is the sin? How does this loving relationship damage the people involved and other people around them?
Quoting Leviticus is a cop out by skipping over dozens of the OTHER admonishments to find the line about homosexuality. There is far more in the Bible about hypocrites than homosexuality.

I am inspired by this call to Pastor by the ELCA, involving all of our defrocked Lutheran Pastors and those that will serve after them. In 1999, at the Denver ELCA Convention, under the Stoles Project, I proudly searched for the Stole of defrocked Pastor Anita Hill. I wore it with pride (undeservingly). I, personally, believe that I would prefer to take communion from a Pastor that just might understand my plight and give me full communion regardless of my condition. That is what Pastor Hill delivers to me and all the many that come to Christ’s table to receive mercy and forgiveness through her ministry. I further believe, that Pastor Hill would bring Christ’s compassion to the plight that each of us shares, whether we want to acknowledge our need for the Love of God, or not. Our Lutheran faith is based on grace, compassion, forgiveness, understanding, kindness, generosity, mercy… This list of God’s blessings, for each of us, goes well beyond just words, and is found in the teachings of a Loving Christ. Literalists can believe otherwise, but their own reconciliation with a Loving God is based on these common trends and repeat themes found in our Bible. A cornerstone belief, and tenet, of Lutheranism echoes back to this: “but for the grace of God there go you or I”. The foundational tenet of the ELCA is faith by “grace”. Let us be gracious, one unto the other, and let us receive the blessings and forgiveness of a Loving God. None of us should deny anyone these Blessings and God’s forgiveness, least we forget what it is that we have asked for ourselves from a Loving God. I believe that today, a certain grace and compassion has been bestowed on former Pastor Anita Hill, and her faithful colleagues, that were turned away by the ELCA. Today is a good day that God has made, let us be glad and rejoice in it. Let us learn to love one another as Christ has loved us, through our Heavenly Father.

Mark Floding

We must discern God’s will and boldly proclaim his Word. Scripture is clear in multiple places (New and Old Testament) that God did not intend sex between same gender people, and that God sees this as sexual perversion and sin. In addition, a review of basic human anatomy clearly shows that God did not intend for a man to place his penis in another man’s anus. Please inform me where the ambiguity lies! God created sex for procreation, and for pleasure and closeness between a Husband and Wife.

The ELCA social statement should say that the ELCA recognizes God’s law as written in the Bible, and therefore concludes that homosexuality is a sin. The ELCA should also state that we love all sinners, for which one of us is free of sin? However, we should encourage confession and repentance of sins as part of welcoming homosexual people into our midst, which is what is expected by God of all of us sinners.

By being vague on this subject, we condemn people to hell by not exposing their sin as sin. Loving Christians lift each other up by confronting our sins, confessing to God and repenting of our sins. If we see a Brother or Sister in Christ that is sinning repeatedly, it is our calling to help that person out of their sin and to help them restore their relationship with God, who hates sin. God has given us the free gift of salvation through his Son Jesus Christ, but we are to honor that relationship by trying to be as sin free as possible, loving our neighbors as ourselves and by inviting others into a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

We must discern God’s will and boldly proclaim his Word. Scripture is clear in multiple places (New and Old Testament) that God did not intend sex between same gender people, and that God sees this as sexual perversion and sin. In addition, a review of basic human anatomy clearly shows that God did not intend for a man to place his penis in another man’s anus. Please inform me where the ambiguity lies! God created sex for procreation, and for pleasure and closeness between a Husband and Wife.

The ELCA social statement should say that the ELCA recognizes God’s law as written in the Bible, and therefore concludes that homosexuality is a sin. The ELCA should also state that we love all sinners, for which one of us is free of sin? However, we should encourage confession and repentance of sins as part of welcoming homosexual people into our midst, which is what is expected by God of all of us sinners.

By being vague on this subject, we condemn people to hell by not exposing their sin as sin. Loving Christians lift each other up by confronting our sins, confessing to God and repenting of our sins. If we see a Brother or Sister in Christ that is sinning repeatedly, it is our calling to help that person out of their sin and to help them restore their relationship with God, who hates sin. God has given us the free gift of salvation through his Son Jesus Christ, but we are to honor that relationship by trying to be as sin free as possible, loving our neighbors as ourselves and by inviting others into a relationship with God through Jesus Christ .

Mr. Keith:

I will say it again in compassion. After much study, and searching, I have a right to my beliefs, as you do yours. I do not hold your views, and as such it is best that we agree to disagree. I welcome all to join in worship with the ELCA and I will leave any judgement up to the greater power of a Loving God, a wisdom that I trust more than the wisdom of man.

Mark Floding

I am inspired by this call to Pastor by the ELCA, involving all of our defrocked Lutheran Pastors and those that will serve after them. In 1999, at the Denver ELCA Convention, under the Stoles Project, I proudly searched for the Stole of defrocked Pastor Anita Hill. I wore it with pride (undeservingly). I, personally, believe that I would prefer to take communion from a Pastor that just might understand my plight and give me full communion regardless of my condition. That is what Pastor Hill delivers to me and all the many that come to Christ’s table to receive mercy and forgiveness through her ministry. I further believe, that Pastor Hill would bring Christ’s compassion to the plight that each of us shares, whether we want to acknowledge our need for the Love of God, or not. Our Lutheran faith is based on grace, compassion, forgiveness, understanding, kindness, generosity, mercy… This list of God’s blessings, for each of us, goes well beyond just words, and is found in the teachings of a Loving Christ. Literalists can believe otherwise, but their own reconciliation with a Loving God is based on these common trends and repeat themes found in our Bible. A cornerstone belief, and tenet, of Lutheranism echoes back to this: “but for the grace of God there go you or I”. The foundational tenet of the ELCA is faith by “grace”. Let us be gracious, one unto the other, and let us receive the blessings and forgiveness of a Loving God. None of us should deny anyone these Blessings and God’s forgiveness, least we forget what it is that we have asked for ourselves from a Loving God. I believe that today, a certain grace and compassion has been bestowed on former Pastor Anita Hill, and her faithful colleagues, that were turned away by the ELCA. Today is a good day that God has made, let us be glad and rejoice in it. Let us learn to love one another as Christ has loved us, through our Heavenly Father.

Mark Floding

I find it interesting that Mr. Flooding states the following “Our Lutheran faith is based on grace, compassion, forgiveness, understanding, kindness, generosity, mercy” but fails to address the fact that God says< " if you love me you will OBEY my commands." Surely there is grace for the sinner, compassion, forgiveness, understanding, kindness etc. but that is for the sinner who repents not for the sinner who flaunts his sin and wants to be in leadership and train others to sin also. This is a very warped interpretation of God's mercy Mr Flooding. Jesus said "Repent for the Kingdom of God is among you" Your statements concerning the makeup of the "Lutheran Faith" hold no water in the completer makeup of the Christian faith and certainly have no place in Christian leadership. You are a cafeteria Christian: I'll have a little of this but none of that. It is a complete packaged called the Bible and you are turning it into something much different.
Anyone who suffers with alcohol, adultery, theft, etc. has a place of forgiveness within the body of Christ and that goes unquestioned but to aspire to believe that you belong in leadership of the body of Christ while tossing millstones about is ludicrous. The ELCA is lost. It has been for a long time and Mark Hanson has taken this denomination down a road that is tragic. Truly the tornado that occurred at the delegate meeting is a precursor to the future of God's wind that will blow this denomination apart.

This is just appalling. If Luther, the late German Christian protester, would still be here…where the denomination “Lutherans” derived from, he would be stunned and completely disappointed in this horrible abomination to the Word of God and the Gospel. I totally am against this election. When God created “man” he created Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and STEVE!!! Hello people. This is a direct form of disobedience to God. And this is happening in a Church, a denomination that professes to know the Word of God???? Please, God will have to deal with you guys…and it won’t be pretty.

Let’s focus on Jesus’ humanity. I mean, you know, how he lived his life, here on Earth and emulate that — his kindness, his tolerance. Listen, here’s what I think. I think that we can’t go around measuring our goodness by what we don’t do, by what we DENY ourselves, what we RESIST, and who we EXCLUDE. I think we’ve got to measure goodness by what we EMBRACE, what we CREATE and who we INCLUDE.

If being gay is a sin, what comandment are they breaking? If you are pointing to other places in the bible, then you also have to accept that a father can kill their disobedient son. Hmmmm…

They have exchanged the Truth for a lie.

They call evil good, and good evil.

Hey you guys, I believe it where you say the bible is clear on this topic and that the word is sacred. Do you know where can I get some slaves? I know you all will stand behind me when I beat my wife as she needs to be submissive to me. Is there a place of worship where I would feel comfortable with my literal beliefs with you all behind me?

Hey Dean, Can’t you just wait for your son to head out on one of those Lutheran sleep-overs with Bruce and Bruce. Bet he’ll get a lot out of that. Maybe they can dream up some new ways to apply grace to purposeful sin and call it holy. Best of luck

Wow James, we have a female heterosexual pastor. so my son has to worry because libido is libido, you are one sick christian, assuming that homosexuals are pedophiles but heterosexuals are not. God forgive you.

Wow Dean, Who really is the sick Christian here. The Christian who says homosexuality is not a sin or the one who knows how to read. If you had a “committed monogamous” relationship with a women outside of marriage it would be called a sin. With a homosexual it is a holy union. Wake up before you start calling people sick.

Are you saying that two ladies in a committed, monogamous relationship is the same sin to a married woman that is not monogamous to her husband?

No. I am saying that two people shacking up together, man and woman, in a committed monogamous unmarried relationship is sin. I am not saying there is no forgiveness of that sin but if it were a pastor or leader in a church the church should disqualify that set of individuals from leading. Therefore why is that different for a homosexual couple. Yes they can be forgiven their sin but that forgiveness would have to be moment by moment as they continue to foster their rebellion, whereas the term for repentance is to turn away from the sin and to develop a hatred for the sin. You seem to want to condone and glorify the sin under the grace alone doctrine. That just is not a justifiable position.

You went straight to the pedophile argument when I said it would not be reasonable to send your son out with a gay minister. The truth is that physically nothing may happen but spiritually you as a father have just placed your child into an atmosphere where the sin of homosexuality is not only condoned but given credence, and now this child must deal with an authority figure in his life that will mark him. Argue that all you want but you know in your knower that this is true.

no you referenced a “sleepover with Bruce and Bruce”. Your implication was clear. It is different for a homosexual couple because it is not a recognized union; thus they have to “shack up.” Your comment about my son implies that you believe that someone’s sexuality is a choice.

You hit the nail on the head Dean. It is not a recognized union. God does not recognize a homosexual union despite the attempts of man to make it so. The “husband of one wife” is pretty clear to most of us who don’t have the agenda of legitimizing homosexual behavior. Yes I think homosexuality is a choice, a bad one. I think all of sin is a choice. You may be born with a tendency to drink, fornicate, be an adulterer, steal, rob, lie whatever, but when you do it, you make a choice. Having a bunch of people tell you that your choice is OK does not make it OK. Regretfully it is tough on all of us to make good choices as the flesh wants its way but nevertheless a bad choice is a bad choice. Teaching children to make bad choices falls into a whole different category and I think you are smart enough to know the scriptures here. Therefore condoning homosexual behavior and rewarding it with positions of leadership where children will be influenced directly by these leaders is way way way wrong.

Wow, someone better tell the scientists that the physiological differences in homosexuals versus heterosexuals are by choice. There is no agenda, it is about Love, compassion, understanding, intelligence. It is not about the flesh; that is a silly argument (making it about sex or making it about two dudes kissing is a cheap sensationalist talking point to try to get the yuck factor up) ; it is about how God made people different, unique and human. It is about believing in Christian.values. People are not born with “tendencies to cheat or steal” that is a learned behavior.
It is not a recognized union because of historical doctrine, ignorance and prejudice. Do you recognize second marriages in your circle of friends or your church? If God made your child gay will you cast them out of your church or family?

Wow Dean now you’re a scientist. Who knew?? What are these physiological differences that you have dreamed up. I’m sure some gay scientist has found some dumb thing to pin this on and you believed it – so what. It is totally inconsistent with reality. I don’t need to chase a yuck factor in this argument and I have not. It is about giving in to the desires of your sinful nature – or not. People are born with the tendencies to cheat and steal etc. Our parents didn’t teach it to us neither did our schools or our church. It is why we need a Savior which you might look in to. The marriage of homosexuals has been tried again and again and every single society was wiped out. That is a historical doctrine. God says don’t do it.
If my child was gay I would not want to see him in church leadership. I would love him or her and still hate the sin. Not all that tough to do.

No I am not a scientist and obviously neither are you. I have had to study the brian, though, since I have an MRI every six months for several years and it became an interest of mine as I was looking for a genetic link for my MS.

There is no “Gay study” that I have seen but credible National Institute of Health, National Cancer Institute, Northwestern University as well as well know international universities (Sweden, I think) studies that conclude there is a brain difference between heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men and homosexual women. The sex of a person occurs in the womb as the embryo takes on their sex characteristics (androgynous until a certain point). The hormones in the womb determine the sex. If there is androgen, it is a boy and a a penis will form if there is no androgen, it is a girl. Various other hormones (testosterone) form the brain and gland system. The hypothalamus in a heterosexual male is quite different than a female or a homosexual man. The brain is of a homsexual is much closer to a heterosexual female than a heterosexual male and vice versa for females.

You can say, yada yada yada, but the church cannot hide from science; doesn’t change faith in God as human’s were created with brains to think and change. Science, critical thought, curiosity etc. are all blessings that we use daily. We drive cars, use the computer, take medicine, get operated on, watch TV, use the microwave, all inventions based on “science”.

Our views change based on accumulated knowledge. I cannot imagine anyone in the church would now think it is OK for females not to serve as leaders, or to have segregrated congregations but that was certainly the case 50 years ago.

Take a look at the real analyis (not family research council or pride or something like that) with an open mind and an open heart and then you will find that your prejudices and misunderstanding are not placed there by God.

You still did not address your Sleepover with Bruce and Bruce as nothing more than titillation.

Dean, First of all I am sorry to hear of your MS. I know this is a tough thing to deal with and I will pray for God’s healing for your circumstance.

Let me address the “sleepover” with Bruce and Bruce. We have fundamentally different ideas concerning the viability of a homosexual relationship. I believe and am supported by scripture that it is a sinful relationship. Let us leave it at that for the sake of this comment as we clearly are not on the same page with the issue of homosexuality being a sin.

If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, sending a child off on a sleepover with a homosexual couple sends the message to your child that this is an acceptable behavior. You give the leaders in this scenario authority to speak into the child’s life either verbally or by action. If you do not believe that homosexuality is a sin then I presume you would see a sleepover with a homosexual couple in leadership as no big deal. However if you are in the other 95% of those who follow Christ – this cannot happen. As a father or mother you have the responsibility to protect your child from those who foster and display their sin in front of children. A Bruce and Bruce sleepover is a tragic display of sin and rebellion to God’s Word. If you believe that the Bible is out of context and you can choose which parts you want to follow – then again this comment means nothing. However if you do believe that homosexuality is a sin and the leadership of your church has endorsed this behavior, then as an ordained protector of your wife and children you need to remove yourself and your family from that church and certainly not send them off to a sleepover with Bruce and Bruce.

I hope this makes some sort of sense. There is no room for the dialogue that the ELCA is pleading for its bible believing people to have. They either have to leave this denomination or face the consequences of placing their children and themselves in harms way. That harm may be physical, spiritual, psychological etc. You simply can’t call what God calls sin irrelevant. The ELCA has done this and the results will be catastrophic for this denomination.

My comment on the science issue remains the same. It is irrelevant. A clever deception to disguise what God calls sin. No matter how much we “change” God does not. He is the same every day. He said in the last days there would be those who take positions like the homosexuals have in regards to whether or not there actions are sinful. We would be blind to not believe that that day has arrived.

“A Bruce and Bruce sleepover is a tragic display of sin and rebellion to God’s Word.”

How is that possible since we know that “Bruce and Bruce” were born that way? Presumably, “the way God made them.”

Being born the way God made you is not a sin. I don’t believe it is a sin any more than I believe Leviticus 20:18, that a man and a woman need to be cast off if they have sex when she is menstruating.

Those are such pathetic arguments that they do not merit a response.

Yea if you don’t have and arguments that make sense then you better not respond.

You believe that it is a sin to be the way God made you, you believe that no one divorced should be a leader in your church, you believe it will cause permanent damage to children to see people different (perhaps) than they are, you believe that your church is exclusive not inclusive. Do you welcome mixed race couples into your circle? Do men have to sit on one side and women on the other? Will your church marry people that slept together first?

I want biblical marriage – one guy and as many wives as I can afford.

Oooops, may have passed that already!

If an argument is right out of The Book, how can it be pathetic?

[...] leaders out there aren’t very happy about the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America’s August decision to allow gay pastors to serve as [...]