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	<title>Comments on: ELCA eliminates ban on openly gay and lesbian clergy</title>
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	<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy</link>
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		<title>By: Gay Pastors Spur Opposition &#8212; Secrets of the City &#8212; Minneapolis + St. Paul</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-43431</link>
		<dc:creator>Gay Pastors Spur Opposition &#8212; Secrets of the City &#8212; Minneapolis + St. Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-43431</guid>
		<description>[...] leaders out there aren&#8217;t very happy about the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America&#8217;s August decision to allow gay pastors to serve as [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] leaders out there aren&#8217;t very happy about the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America&#8217;s August decision to allow gay pastors to serve as [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-37639</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 04:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-37639</guid>
		<description>If an argument is right out of The Book, how can it be pathetic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If an argument is right out of The Book, how can it be pathetic?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-37638</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 04:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-37638</guid>
		<description>I want biblical marriage - one guy and as many wives as I can afford.  

Oooops, may have passed that already!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want biblical marriage &#8211; one guy and as many wives as I can afford.  </p>
<p>Oooops, may have passed that already!</p>
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		<title>By: Dean</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-37560</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 13:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-37560</guid>
		<description>Yea if you don&#039;t have and arguments that make sense then you better not respond. 

You believe that it is a sin to be the way God made you, you believe that no one divorced should be a leader in your church, you believe it will cause permanent damage to children to see people different (perhaps) than they are, you believe that your church is exclusive not inclusive. Do you welcome mixed race couples into your circle? Do men have to sit on one side and women on the other? Will your church marry people that slept together first?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea if you don&#8217;t have and arguments that make sense then you better not respond. </p>
<p>You believe that it is a sin to be the way God made you, you believe that no one divorced should be a leader in your church, you believe it will cause permanent damage to children to see people different (perhaps) than they are, you believe that your church is exclusive not inclusive. Do you welcome mixed race couples into your circle? Do men have to sit on one side and women on the other? Will your church marry people that slept together first?</p>
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		<title>By: James Frassett</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-37521</link>
		<dc:creator>James Frassett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 04:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-37521</guid>
		<description>Those are such pathetic arguments that they do not merit a response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those are such pathetic arguments that they do not merit a response.</p>
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		<title>By: Dean</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-37516</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 03:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-37516</guid>
		<description>Being born the way God made you is not a sin. I don&#039;t believe it is a sin any more than I believe Leviticus 20:18, that a man and a woman need to be cast off if they have sex when she is menstruating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being born the way God made you is not a sin. I don&#8217;t believe it is a sin any more than I believe Leviticus 20:18, that a man and a woman need to be cast off if they have sex when she is menstruating.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-37513</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-37513</guid>
		<description>&quot;A Bruce and Bruce sleepover is a tragic display of sin and rebellion to God’s Word.&quot;

How is that possible since we know that &quot;Bruce and Bruce&quot; were born that way?  Presumably, &quot;the way God made them.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A Bruce and Bruce sleepover is a tragic display of sin and rebellion to God’s Word.&#8221;</p>
<p>How is that possible since we know that &#8220;Bruce and Bruce&#8221; were born that way?  Presumably, &#8220;the way God made them.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: James Frassett</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-37472</link>
		<dc:creator>James Frassett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-37472</guid>
		<description>Dean, First of all I am sorry to hear of your MS.  I know this is a tough thing to deal with and I will pray for God&#039;s healing for your circumstance.  

Let me address the &quot;sleepover&quot; with Bruce and Bruce.  We have fundamentally different ideas concerning the viability of a homosexual relationship.  I believe and am supported by scripture that it is a sinful relationship.  Let us leave it at that for the sake of this comment as we clearly are not on the same page with the issue of homosexuality being a sin.

If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, sending a child off on a sleepover with a homosexual couple sends the message to your child that this is an acceptable behavior.  You give the leaders in this scenario authority to speak into the child&#039;s life either verbally or by action.  If you do not believe that homosexuality is a sin then I presume you would see a sleepover with a homosexual couple in leadership as no big deal.  However if you are in the other 95% of those who follow Christ - this cannot happen.  As a father or mother you have the responsibility to protect your child from those who foster and display their sin in front of children. A Bruce and Bruce sleepover is a tragic display of sin and rebellion to God&#039;s Word.  If you believe that the Bible is out of context and you can choose which parts you want to follow - then again this comment means nothing.  However if you do believe that homosexuality is a sin and the leadership of your church has endorsed this behavior, then as an ordained protector of your wife and children you need to remove yourself and your family from that church and certainly not send them off to a sleepover with Bruce and Bruce.

I hope this makes some sort of sense.  There is no room for the dialogue that the ELCA is pleading for its bible believing people to have.  They either have to leave this denomination or face the consequences of placing their children and themselves in harms way.  That harm may be physical, spiritual, psychological etc.  You simply can&#039;t call what God calls sin irrelevant.  The ELCA has done this and the results will be catastrophic for this denomination. 

My comment on the science issue remains the same.  It is irrelevant.  A clever deception to disguise what God calls sin.  No matter how much we &quot;change&quot; God does not.  He is the same every day.  He said in the last days there would be those who take positions like the homosexuals have in regards to whether or not there actions are sinful.  We would be blind to not believe that that day has arrived.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dean, First of all I am sorry to hear of your MS.  I know this is a tough thing to deal with and I will pray for God&#8217;s healing for your circumstance.  </p>
<p>Let me address the &#8220;sleepover&#8221; with Bruce and Bruce.  We have fundamentally different ideas concerning the viability of a homosexual relationship.  I believe and am supported by scripture that it is a sinful relationship.  Let us leave it at that for the sake of this comment as we clearly are not on the same page with the issue of homosexuality being a sin.</p>
<p>If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, sending a child off on a sleepover with a homosexual couple sends the message to your child that this is an acceptable behavior.  You give the leaders in this scenario authority to speak into the child&#8217;s life either verbally or by action.  If you do not believe that homosexuality is a sin then I presume you would see a sleepover with a homosexual couple in leadership as no big deal.  However if you are in the other 95% of those who follow Christ &#8211; this cannot happen.  As a father or mother you have the responsibility to protect your child from those who foster and display their sin in front of children. A Bruce and Bruce sleepover is a tragic display of sin and rebellion to God&#8217;s Word.  If you believe that the Bible is out of context and you can choose which parts you want to follow &#8211; then again this comment means nothing.  However if you do believe that homosexuality is a sin and the leadership of your church has endorsed this behavior, then as an ordained protector of your wife and children you need to remove yourself and your family from that church and certainly not send them off to a sleepover with Bruce and Bruce.</p>
<p>I hope this makes some sort of sense.  There is no room for the dialogue that the ELCA is pleading for its bible believing people to have.  They either have to leave this denomination or face the consequences of placing their children and themselves in harms way.  That harm may be physical, spiritual, psychological etc.  You simply can&#8217;t call what God calls sin irrelevant.  The ELCA has done this and the results will be catastrophic for this denomination. </p>
<p>My comment on the science issue remains the same.  It is irrelevant.  A clever deception to disguise what God calls sin.  No matter how much we &#8220;change&#8221; God does not.  He is the same every day.  He said in the last days there would be those who take positions like the homosexuals have in regards to whether or not there actions are sinful.  We would be blind to not believe that that day has arrived.</p>
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		<title>By: Dean</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-37422</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-37422</guid>
		<description>No I am not a scientist and obviously neither are you. I have had to study the brian, though, since I have an MRI every six months for several years and it became an interest of mine as I was looking for a genetic link for my MS. 

There is no &quot;Gay study&quot; that I have seen but credible National Institute of Health, National Cancer Institute, Northwestern University as well as well know international universities (Sweden, I think)  studies that conclude there is a brain difference between heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men and homosexual women. The sex of a person occurs in the womb as the embryo takes on their sex characteristics (androgynous until a certain point). The hormones in the womb determine the sex. If there is androgen, it is a boy and a a penis will form if there is no androgen, it is a girl. Various other hormones (testosterone) form the brain and gland system. The hypothalamus in a heterosexual male is quite different than a female or a homosexual man. The brain is of a homsexual is much closer to a heterosexual female than a heterosexual male and vice versa for females. 

You can say, yada yada yada, but the church cannot hide from science; doesn&#039;t change faith in God as human&#039;s were created with brains to think and change. Science, critical thought, curiosity etc. are all blessings that we use daily. We drive cars, use the computer, take medicine, get operated on, watch TV, use the microwave, all inventions based on &quot;science&quot;. 

Our views change based on accumulated knowledge. I cannot imagine anyone in the church would now think it is OK for females not to serve as leaders, or to have segregrated congregations but that was certainly the case 50 years ago. 

Take a look at the real analyis (not family research council or pride or something like that) with an open mind and an open heart and then you will find that your prejudices and misunderstanding are not placed there by God. 

You still did not address your Sleepover with Bruce and Bruce as nothing more than titillation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No I am not a scientist and obviously neither are you. I have had to study the brian, though, since I have an MRI every six months for several years and it became an interest of mine as I was looking for a genetic link for my MS. </p>
<p>There is no &#8220;Gay study&#8221; that I have seen but credible National Institute of Health, National Cancer Institute, Northwestern University as well as well know international universities (Sweden, I think)  studies that conclude there is a brain difference between heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men and homosexual women. The sex of a person occurs in the womb as the embryo takes on their sex characteristics (androgynous until a certain point). The hormones in the womb determine the sex. If there is androgen, it is a boy and a a penis will form if there is no androgen, it is a girl. Various other hormones (testosterone) form the brain and gland system. The hypothalamus in a heterosexual male is quite different than a female or a homosexual man. The brain is of a homsexual is much closer to a heterosexual female than a heterosexual male and vice versa for females. </p>
<p>You can say, yada yada yada, but the church cannot hide from science; doesn&#8217;t change faith in God as human&#8217;s were created with brains to think and change. Science, critical thought, curiosity etc. are all blessings that we use daily. We drive cars, use the computer, take medicine, get operated on, watch TV, use the microwave, all inventions based on &#8220;science&#8221;. </p>
<p>Our views change based on accumulated knowledge. I cannot imagine anyone in the church would now think it is OK for females not to serve as leaders, or to have segregrated congregations but that was certainly the case 50 years ago. </p>
<p>Take a look at the real analyis (not family research council or pride or something like that) with an open mind and an open heart and then you will find that your prejudices and misunderstanding are not placed there by God. </p>
<p>You still did not address your Sleepover with Bruce and Bruce as nothing more than titillation.</p>
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		<title>By: James Frassett</title>
		<link>http://minnesotaindependent.com/42509/elca-eliminates-ban-on-openly-gay-and-lesbian-clergy/comment-page-1#comment-37376</link>
		<dc:creator>James Frassett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 02:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnesotaindependent.com/?p=42509#comment-37376</guid>
		<description>Wow Dean now you&#039;re a scientist.  Who knew??  What are these physiological differences that you have dreamed up.  I&#039;m sure some gay scientist has found some dumb thing to pin this on and you believed it - so what.  It is totally inconsistent with reality.  I don&#039;t need to chase a yuck factor in this argument and I have not.  It is about giving in to the desires of your sinful nature - or not.  People are born with the tendencies to cheat and steal etc.  Our parents didn&#039;t teach it to us neither did our schools or our church. It is why we need a Savior which you might look in to. The marriage of homosexuals has been tried again and again and every single society was wiped out.  That is a historical doctrine.  God says don&#039;t do it. 
If my child was gay I would not want to see him in church leadership.  I would love him or her and still hate the sin.  Not all that tough to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow Dean now you&#8217;re a scientist.  Who knew??  What are these physiological differences that you have dreamed up.  I&#8217;m sure some gay scientist has found some dumb thing to pin this on and you believed it &#8211; so what.  It is totally inconsistent with reality.  I don&#8217;t need to chase a yuck factor in this argument and I have not.  It is about giving in to the desires of your sinful nature &#8211; or not.  People are born with the tendencies to cheat and steal etc.  Our parents didn&#8217;t teach it to us neither did our schools or our church. It is why we need a Savior which you might look in to. The marriage of homosexuals has been tried again and again and every single society was wiped out.  That is a historical doctrine.  God says don&#8217;t do it.<br />
If my child was gay I would not want to see him in church leadership.  I would love him or her and still hate the sin.  Not all that tough to do.</p>
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