Fifteen Minnesota churches leaving ELCA over gay pastor vote

Gone to far away from the bible? I am sure you are quoting the likes at the MN Family council. They will say that there is differences between moral and ceremonial laws. That they are there to follow the moral laws, that those stand true.

But do they follow slavery? Do they condone rape murder and genocide? For those are also moral constructed laws and practices of the Bible?

Or have they said that they are differences in those areas in the day we are at now?

Such as the acceptance that there are biologically differences in people that offer different people, some gay some not, and all people are accepted by their lord, their God of their bible.

They are all hypocrites and sinners by their own laws and rites that they say they follow.

They do not follow suit, they do not follow their own agenda that they push politically.

They do not see how its themselves that are the sinners.

In reply to “Marie”.

What? I’m sorry, but I tried to follow your convoluted posting and wondered if you even know what YOU said. Oh my Lord!

It’s very simple: The bible condemns homosexuality and lesbianisn as one of the many sins of humanity. It is an abberrant behavior (yes, it is a behavior) that is an abomination to the God of the Bible. All your convoluted ranting and raving will not and cannot change that. It is God’s expressed will in the bible. It has nothing to do with your idea of whether God accepts people or not. In actuality, all men need the Savior (the Lord Jesus Christ) because before that all are under the judgment and wrath of a holy God (John 3:36). It’s not one’s “gayness” or “lesbianism” that sends one to hell, it’s the sinful condition that all men are in before a just and holy God. The Lutheran breakup has to be because the Bible that they both claim to uphold (apostolic teaching) strictly demands that when our brothers do not walk according to the teaching of the Lord and scripture, they are to withdraw from them. They are to have nothing to do with them, but must still admonish them as brothers (2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14, 15).

The CORE’s decision to separate, although perhaps painful to many, is the right decision biblically. Don’t look back. Those who stay in Sodom will be judge as was Sodom.

I’m a little confused by this. I have a close relative who works at one of the churches mentioned in that list (as well as at the LutheranCORE site), and as of yesterday (when we talked about this), they hadn’t even brought up leaving the ELCA to a congregational vote. The council recommended, with the Senior Pastor leading the way, to spend a year evaluating their options before doing anything “drastic” (their word).

Looking closer, LutheranCORE appears to be somehow related to WordAlone, a conservative group within the ELCA – donations to LutheranCORE are asked to be made out to WordAlone. WordAlone seems to have its own Common Confession, which also has language around homosexuality (in that its bad and such).

Slavery is condoned by God in the bible Do you condone slavery Danny?

Religion is by nature a behavior, and In my religion your behavior is condoned. For you are a bigot.

No, Danny, most gays will tell you they didn’t choose any behavior as you state. There was no National Choice Day where gays all signed up to be persecuted for a lifetime by the likes of you. And as for Marie, she made sense to anyone who is willing to listen to her. It is intellectual condescension to pretend you don’t understand her. Marie means that if Christians did everything “in the Bible”, the fact that every man, woman, and child murdered in Jericho — yes, they were all killed — would have to be factored into biblical Lutheran policy for today. Luterans would have to go to Nevada and kill everyone in Las Vegas, plus everyone inside Nevada’s legalized brothels. The truth is, some conservative Lutherans are saying they wish to go by the Bible, but they really don’t want to do “everything” in that book. They just want to pick and choose to come up with feel-good policies that suit their own “behavior.” Rather than start a new denomination they need to go to college and replace their superstitions about “behavior” with something more truthful and realistic.

Yes David, Genocide is not only condoned but given out as an instruction in the bible. So is rape, murder and the having of multiple wives.

When I simply state do you follow all laws of the bible? and most people use the simple use of example as eating shellfish, cutting of hair, and wearing of certain clothes, they have the rebuttle that those laws are ceremonial, not moral laws.

There are MORAL laws that are instructed such as rape, murder, and slavery. If you follow all the MORAL laws of the bible, then of you must have two or more wives, beat them regularly, rape, murder all people that go against your GOD and own slaves.

I reall get a hoot out of people that say being Gay is a behavoir, and or up in arms because the law now protects Gay people under hate crimes. They yell and scream that its the only “behavior” that is coverd by law, when infact Religion is a behavior, it is chosen, it not something that you are medically born with. All religion is behavior, religion is defined by its practices and rituals which are by again definition, behaviors! And we very well know that Religion is coverd by law.

No problemo.

Now the churches who are leaving can get to the REAL issue:
Divorce.

Jesus said anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. That’s a quote according to the Bible.

Now, if you divorce your wife and remarry, you are committing adultery every time you have sex with your new wife (or girlfriend). So it isn’t just a “one-time sin, say your real sorry, and go on”. No, its continuous.

C’mon, you Bible quoting believers, time to stop the REAL threat to marriage- divorce. Throw out everyone who is divorced and remarried until they go back to their first wife. And make those old first wives dump their second or third or whatever husband. THEN come and tell us about the homosexuals.

If your to follow the bible to the letter, then you must think that the earth is the center of the universe as well, and that the eart is flat.

I agree with Marie. Religion is a behavior, and I am very happy to know that it is covered to be protected under law.

I am also happy to know that Gay people are as well.

Danny, you forget one thing, your GOD is not everyone’s God and you can not force anyone to see the bible exactly you do. Its a preception. We can have the base idea of the same religion but practice it differently. And you know what? Thats ok just like its ok to be gay. If you don’t support Gay marriage, then don’t marry a gay person! By all means be a bigot and say that being Gay is against God’s laws. I can also say that you saying so is against God’s law, because it is in my religion.

The extremists will always be here. They were the ones Jesus were fighting against, Thats what always makes me laugh the most with the radical religious right groups doing exactly the acts that their very religion was based on.

The root of it all is power though, not faith.

Since faith has no bounderies, and can not be contained or dictated by a single man. Which is what these extremist groups are doing.

This story is altogether inaccurate.

Many, in fact most, of the Churches that are listed at Lutheran Core have either already left the ELCA, or have already affiliated with LCMC- Lutheran Congregations in Mission For Christ- some even long before “CORE” was ever formed. A quick look at the member congregations of LCMC at http://www.lcmc.net will show that many of the congregations claimed by Lutheran Core across the country are already members of a new denomination.

Lutheran Core seems to be using the names of congregations that used to be “Word Alone” churches, or supported Word Alone, and listing those as “Lutheran Core” members to make it look like they are leading some exodus out of the ELCA. The congregations that do not already have an affiliation with another denomination are all small congregations.

Truth is, the only game in town is LCMS and LCMC- for example, LCMC was formed years ago speciffically to help congregations leaving the ELCA, and has had all of the infrastructure in place for years to support pensions, health insurance, and daily operations of a denominational structure. CORE has none of this off the ground yet and is years behind the organizational aspects of creating a new denomination.

What’s more is that the LCMC is made up of the largest and strongest congregations leaving the ELCA, while CORE seems to be representing many smaller, dying or rural congregations.

So, the story is just not accurate because it paints Lutheran Core as some national movement, when it is only a shell game- it really isn’t what it appears to be- or what they are passing themselves off as.

Please don’t tell me that this discussion board is going to devolve into another argument about homosexuality-

The real story here is that Lutheran Core is a fraud-

many of the congregations already listed as members have either already left the ELCA/affiliated with LCMC (lcmc.net) or were just Word Alone Members from the ELCA- congregations that have no intention at all of leaving the ELCA.

Every outlet all over the country are printing stories that Lutheran Core is some kind of big movement- pushing a big split- this is just false- a sexy story, but an untrue one.

Congregations that are actually leaving the ELCA are joining the LCMC- which was formed long before homosexuality was an issue in the ELCA- and as a response to disagreements over the ecumenical agreement with the Episcopal Church, and what was seen as the low view of the Bible in the ELCA.

Lutheran CORE seems more politically motivated rather than belief motivated, and is ginning up its “membership list”- and the press hasn’t even looked closely at it- if they did they would see that Lutheran CORE is really insignificant right now and is trying to appear bigger than they really are.

Somebody should write that story.

“Bob”: If you’d like to comment, please do so without graphic language or namecalling. Thanks.

Be very suspicious of anyone who claims to know what God wants/knows/thinks etc.

Fifteen churches would rather follow a few selected paragraphs from a book complied over decades of oral tradition in a misogynist racist, violent, male dominated culture than examine their values and discover the true meaning of love. Let them go wander in the desert of hate if that is their desire.

MN Guy… Only correction to your statement it was over centuries actually that they were complied, and to also add, there are many many many many books not added used that are part of that complied book.

Its a pick and choose what moral codes they want to follow suit. And those have been through out history any which one that will advance their pocketbooks and power station. Not at all to do with Faith.

It seems like these congregations are planning to leave just because ONE of their views doesn’t line up with most of the ELCA. If their views needed to line up exactly with the general views of their denomination, then every church might as well have their own.

While the Bible does prohibit sex between men (homosexuality), it can nevertheless be shown that the prohibition does not apply today when the sexual activity causes no harm. Also the prohibition does not apply today because it applied only to the ancient Israelite and Roman cultures. The Bible criticizes, but does not prohibit, sex between women. Full reasons for these conclusions are given on the Gay and Christian website (www.gaysandslaves.com).

Andy Birkey makes an incorrect assumption in his closing statement. Congregations that have adopted the “Common Confession” under Lutheran Core have NOT necessarily “started the process of leaving the ELCA.” On the contrary, a congregation might wish to adopt this “Common Confession” in order to stay within the fellowship of the ELCA, while making clear that the congregation has misgivings about certain stances the ELCA as a whole has made. The ELCA allows for this, and has called for ELCA members with differing views to respect each other. I see little respect in many of the comments posted above.

What kind of God do we proclaim, one of vengeance or one of mercy? If God is only vengeance, then we are all condemned already. If God is mercy, then God forgives. Our sin is forgiven…

Paul wrote, asking whether we should sin on purpose in order to obtain more grace, and answering with a resounding “No!”

Living a “righteous” life may not be possible for us. None of us wants our “unrighteous” behavior defined as sin. Yet, all of us sin, falling short of God’s glory (even Paul). Thankfully, we do not depend upon our righteousness to save us. We depend on God’s righteousness.

Marie: you are a reprobate, and you are speaking from the perspective of your father. The Bible speaks of this clearly. You are doing your father’s work. Your father is Satan and you are unregenerated. It does no good to argue with the likes of you if you are not one of the Elect. We will, however, pray for you.

Jude 1:4 (New International Version)
4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[a] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

People read Bible In James its clearly said that gay people can`t inherit the kingdom of God.Don`t fool yourself if you can not and don`t want to get rid of your sin you are slave of your sin.By the way Thats one of the greatest sins.God destroyed cities for that.Wake up.GO REPENT and follow the way of Christ.And thats not the first time that gay agenda trying to raice.In revalation When Jesus send message to churches he mentioned “sect of nikolaits”God`s exactly words were ‘I hate whate they doing’Either you will repent and fight that sin or whoever going to approove your behavior pastor or pop or any authority you going end up in Hell.

Mr. Birkey,

You have loads of misinformation as Michelle Rowell has pointed out. My parents belong to Redeemer Lutheran of Henderson and that congregation has by no means started any process to leave the ELCA.

I hope you do the responsible thing (or have already done so) by pointing out your sloppy reporting and providing a retraction.

My tone is definitely one of frustration. This is a sensitive topic to begin with. Irresponsible reporting like this by Mr. Birkey, has inflamed the conversation with rumors and misinformation.

I read some of the comments. I wonder how many have done a research on “has the word homosexual always been translated as homosexual”. What I found was that it appears that none of the words “homosexual” were in the original copies that we have. Then, your reply may be: But, the Bible says “you should not lay with someone of the same sex, as is unnatural”. Well, I guess that if you are born gay, then,it would be natural to lay with someone of the same sex and unnatural to try to be hetrosexual.

Again – you might bring up the story of Sodom & Gomorrah. Well, I understand that there were probably about 6,000 people in that city at that time and it says of all ages. There must have been children there. If all of the people were homosexual and that was a homosexual event – How did the children get there. Some must have been hetro-sexual. And, were the visitors men or angels? Different translations use different words there. There are some different places in the Bible where it lists the sins of Sodom & Gomorrah, and homosexuality is not among those sins.

Go to “Religious Tolerance” website and see what it says there.

This is all a moot point as there is no God.

This is sad. The ELCA has said that, after polling/praying with many members, we are not of “one mind” on this issue. For some congregations, this = “leave.” I cannot say how sad is this conclusion. Stay. Fight on. Schism is never the answer.

No competent Lutheran theologian since Schleiermacher’s time has held the view of the Bible being used to accuse the ELCA of being ‘unbiblical’. American Christians have been feeding each other myths about the Holy Bible since the Schofield Reference Bible of l880, but it’s exaggerated nonsense. What some competent theologians object to in the ELCA is the arguments used for the change. That’s a very different position from the hardline Bibliolatry being advanced by some commenters on this site.

There is only one God. You don’t need to be a theologian or scholar to know that. I will pray for Jean Simmons and all others who think there is no God. Those are the folks that need Him in their life more than ever. God be with us all in these difficult times. We all need Him more than ever!