Issue 1

“A) The Ten Commandments tell us, not that slavery is bad, but that we shouldn’t covet another man’s property, including his slaves.
Exodus 20:17, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor’s.” ”

The Bible stresses in these passages that one should not covet. These passages only mention the presence of slaves in ancient Biblical times, not laws regarding them. Servants and maidservants were a huge part of the economy of ALL ancient kingdoms, including Isreal’s but may I also remind anyone reading this that the Isrealite’s were fairly aware of the fact that they too were slaves in the land of Egypt which discredits your assumption that Isrealites accepted treating their slaves severely, let alone God.

Exodus 1:13,14 (NKJV)
“So the Egyptians made the children of Isreal serve with rigor. And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage–in mortar, in brick, and in all manner of service in the field. All their service in which they made them serve was with rigor.”

Deuteronomy 15:15 (NKJV)
“You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Eygpt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today.”

Deuteronomy 15:12-18 also concerns laws regarding bondservants and their treatment. Any good historian knows (historians being the primary examiners of any ancient document and its translation) that knowing about the culture surrounding the document as well as looking at the document in full context are what determine its meaning.

May I also add that Joseph was a slave in Egypt (Genesis 39:1).

Issue 2

“B) It is acceptable for an owner to beat his slave severely enough to disable him for up to two days.
Exodus 21:20-21, “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property].””

That same view of punishment also appeals to men who are not slaves just two verses above.

Exodus 21:18,19
“If men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but is confined to his bed, if he rises again and walks about outside with his staff, then he who struck him shall be acquitted. He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed.”

Issue 3
“C) If you were a slave in the Bible, it was acceptable to rape them. There are numerous instances in which an owner gave their slave to be used sexually, regardless of how the slave felt about the matter.
Genesis 16:1-2, “Now Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.”
Genesis 30:9-10, “When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her Jacob to wife. And Zilpah Leah’s maid bare Jacob a son.””

Rape is not once mentioned nor exceptable by Hebrew Law. In the Story of Abram and Sarai (God later changed their names to Abraham and Sarah). The way the story goes, and you can read this in Genesis, is that Abram and Sarai had no children however God had promised Abram that he would have a child. Sarai and Abram, decided still to go ahead and have a child through Hagar, Sarai’s maidservant. This was more of a pre-artificial insimination that people of the Isreal viewed as acceptable. Although I believe God did not as Ishmael and his mother were also later thrown out of Abraham’s house when Ishmael was found to be mocking Isaac, Abram and Sarai’s son, at a feast being held for him when he was a child. That however is my opinion. What is not my opinion and stands as fact is that no where in either of these stories is rape mentioned as being the means of how Hagar concieved Ishmael her son or how Leah’s made servent concieved children. To say so would be an extrapolation which goes against the principles of authentic Biblical research.

Genesis 34:1,2
“Now Dinah the daughter of Leah, whom she had borne to Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land. And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her and lay with her, and violated her.”

Please notice the author (Moses- the same author of Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus which are the books that are being quoted about) uses the term “violated” because the act itself is looked down upon. I think when reading the Bible or the Pentateuch (first five books or often called the historical books)in particular it is important to understand that many of these books were written as historical accounts meaning that they tell of things that have happened. They tell of bad things happening to people as well as good but it is important to be able to read them in full context that you may be able to distinguish them and to understand God’s response to them.

Deuteronomy 22:25,26 (NKJV)
“But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter.”

Again, this law in Deuteronomy refers to rape as being a crime deserving of death.

Issue 4

“D) Nowhere in the New Testament do any of the Apostles call for an end to slavery. In fact, they suggest that slaves be obediant to their masters and resist the notion that slaves should be freed.”

The verse reads like this..
Ephesians 6:5-9
“Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling [meaning having a high respect for], in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ [notice this as more of a servant to Christ], doing the will of God from the heart, with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord not to men, knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will recieve the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. And you, masters[the masters are also instructed], do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.”

I appoligize for this long reply but I only mean to respectfully and logically express how sincerely I disagree with your conclusions. I hope that you may take another look at these verses and perhaps the Bible because I know how much reading it as well as folling Jesus has changed my life. Please remember the Bible is meant to be read as a whole and not skimmed through. There were Pharisee’s in Jesus’ time who knew the Bible (at the time the Old Testament) from front to back and still had no idea what Jesus was talking about.

Many people think of Christians as ignorant, foolish, bigoted, unintelligent and whatever other unkind reply you can add to this by saying that we are quick to judge. Is it not also unfair to judge a Christian before you have read our reasoning? I agree that the Bible is to be read as a whole and in context. I don’t believe it is right to pick and choose but that also goes for those apposing Christianity as well.

Thank you for your time,
Becka

I know God doesn’t hate me. I don’t need you to tell me that God doesn’t hate me. I know in my heart of hearts that God has loved me from day one, regardless of my sexuality, and God will love me until the day I die, regardless of my sexuality.

I know you never said it, and I’m glad you never would. I never said you said it. But don’t you see? It’s when feelings like the one you’ve expressed are allowed to grow that feelings like “God hates fags” become horribly real. It’s when you preach in church that “homosexuals are an abomination unto God” that homosexuals feel God hates them.

You think you’re doing the LGBT Community a favor by telling them you don’t accept their lifestyle as normal. You think you’re saving them from the wrath of God. But all you’re doing is slapping them in the face and pushing them away from God. You haven’t said those things, but I know where you’re coming from. I’ve been there. I told myself the same thing, and every homosexual I came in contact with. “You’re a sinner, God loves you, but you have to repent of your sinful lifestyle.”

I wish you a happy Easter too. And I hope my words have made a difference, if not in your life, then at least in the lives of those who read this conversation you and I had. I wouldn’t have spoken them otherwise.

PQ, I wish you a happy upcoming Easter and may all of us, God’s children rejoyce in his love.

Peace out

I’m sure you’ve heard about the murder of Matthew Shepard?

Do you think Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson just one day decided they were going to target a gay college student, who posed no threat to them whatsoever, and torture and leave him to die just for the hell of it?

No. They were taught that “homosexuality is not normal,” that “homosexuality is an abomination.” After a lifetime of seeing homosexuals as perverts destroying society, how else should they have reacted when they found out Matthew was gay? With love and acceptance? Or should they do everything they can to stop this “fiend” from “infecting society” any more?

Do you think they would have acted differently had they been told that homosexuals are normal, had been raised with the understanding that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality? In other words, do you think Matthew would be alive today?

Face it, your beliefs have consequences, Dano. I’m not saying mine don’t. I’m just forcing you to recognize that saying things like, “homosexuals aren’t normal” isn’t harmless. It is very harmful. And in the case of Matthew Shepard, and hundreds upon hundreds more like Matthew Shepard, it is even deadly.

You might not think such violence happens in this day and age.

But in 2008, Lawrence King was a 15 year old student who dressed in women’s clothing to school and asked his classmate Brandon McInerney to a dance. Brandon felt so scared to be asked to a dance by a boy that he brought a gun to school and shot Larry in the head twice, putting him into coma, which lead to death. Now, because people like you told Brandon that being gay was disgusting and not normal, Brandon is being tried as an adult for premeditated murder, discharging a firearm, and a hate crime. Not only was Larry’s life ended, but so was Brandon’s.

And then you have the other kids in the world who kill themselves because they are constantly harrassed and abused by classmates, because their family tells them they are sinful, because they are forced into psychiatry for being simply who they are. Or sometimes worse, the kids who turn to drugs to escape their depression, the kids who are homeless because their parents can’t handle a homosexual in the house, the kids who suffer because society keeps telling them they are not welcome here.

//You create your own reality and no one can make you feel any way unless you let them.//

Bullshit! You spend your entire life being told God hates you, you get kicked out of your home, disowned by your parents, beaten up, sexually assaulted, verbally abused, slandered, all because you love someone of the same sex, and then you tell me that you only feel bad about yourself because you let them make you feel bad. Until then, shut the fuck up, because you don’t know shit about what it’s like to be gay in a homophobic society. And you sure as hell have no right talking about the morality of love.

I’ve been lucky. But for every lucky LGBT person, there are a dozen unlucky ones.

There. Now I’m done.

I’m sure you could give a… “sheet.”

However, correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought it was the nature of Christians to be concerned with the condition of their neighbor’s soul?

And, since you seem so convinced that you’re right, that the Bible is so infallible, why don’t you humor me and respond to any of my arguments, rather than dismiss them as ravings?

//Piss poor argument, blacks still like the correct gender.//

You’re missing the point.

A white supremacist would say that blacks are less human on the basis of their skin color.

A homophobe would say that homosexuals are less human on the basis of the gender they love.

There is no difference. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination.

//I wish you luck in the Seminary b/c you are gonna’ need it….//

Um, I never said I was in Seminary. I said I PLANNED on going to Seminary. But since I left the Church, why would I study to work for the Church?

//Don’t lay that sh@# on me.//

Oh, it’s not shit. And you might as well say what you mean, because even Jesus knows sh@# = shit.

There’s a term for this. It’s called the Tower of Violence. The concept is fairly easy to comprehend.

Each layer of the Tower of Violence helps support the layer above it. The first is Avoidance. Which is basically what you have started with. Avoidance is essentially saying you don’t want to think about what you are avoiding, talk about it, acknowledge it as normal, or anything like that.

The next level is verbal rejection, which is what you’ve also done. You verbally reject homosexuals as less than human.

The next level is human rights violations, and given that you seem a political fellow, I imagine you’ve voted to restrict the rights of homosexuals a few times. Human rights violations include, but are not limited to, denial of housing or employment simply because a person is homosexual. Thankfully, Minnesota doesn’t allow this. But in states like North Dakota, it is perfectly legal to deny housing to a known or perceived homosexual.

The next two levels you (HOPEFULLY) haven’t committed, Violence and Murder. But don’t you see? Violence towards and Murder of homosexuals is made acceptable BECAUSE you treat them less than human when you avoid them, when you verbally reject them, and when you violate their human rights. It’s not morally right, but that’s the only logical conclusion.

//Jeez, you need to dial her back jack.//

Dano, YOU are the one who turned this into a confrontation. Instead of politely declining to give a reason for your position, or instead of politely explaining why you feel the way you feel, you decided to insult my intelligence, which gave me every reason to show that your beliefs regarding homosexuality are illogical and immoral.

You forget that you freely chose to comment on this forum, which meant that I was able to respond to your comment any way I felt, within the laws of the land and within the rules of this website.

And then, you freely chose to respond to my comments. If you don’t like what I have to say, you don’t have to respond. Although, that does kind of put you in a bind because that makes it seem like you are fleeing the argument. You just have to ask yourself whether you care about your pride or not. And a good Christian would say, “Fuck my pride.” Well… perhaps they wouldn’t put it in quite such foul language. ;)

But I’ll end there. The proverbial ball is in your court.

“PQ, not too bright are you?”

You basically called PQ stupid and he’s the one that needs to “dial it back”?