School advocates say anti-bullying laws needed, Emmer says no

The suggestion that we can legislate human behavior is common folly. Adolescent angst and cruelty cannot be eliminated with new laws. We are just making ourselves feel better, rather like our checks at airports. Instead, we need to model and promote new values, a much much harder but more effective task that requires real work, critical thinking, change. Don’t hold your breath.

Rob,

I agree with the spirit of what you say. Laws can only do so much, and if we want to see real change, it’s going to take a cultural one, not a legislative one.

However, it is a fact that laws do have a role in shaping societal behavior and individual behavior.

When it became illegal to discriminate based on race, it certainly wasn’t going to legislate human behavior. What it did was say, “The government now has authority to punish behavior that violates the rights of other human beings.” And over time, that legal standing changed public perception of interracial marriage. Certainly in the South it’d still be frowned upon, and maybe in even some more moderate places of the US it’s thought of as unusual, but public opinion has become supportive of those measures to end discrimination based on race.

The same thing is true of this anti-bullying law. While it certainly won’t legislate human behavior, it’ll say which behavior is allowable.

Tom Emmer thinks that parents are supposed to be the ones to teach their kids about bullying, but how much do you bet the bullies in the school have parents who, if not encourage bullying based on actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity, at least don’t care to stop it?

[...] More political fights to block anti-bullying policies that would protect LGBTQ youth Jump to Comments This just in: There are several politicians in Minnesota who are playing political games with anti-bullying policies. [...]

I second what PQ said. If we relied on people to police their own racist behavior, the South would remain under Jim Crow, for cryin’ out loud. People are still racist, to be sure, but they now know to keep it to themselves. Usually.

Anti discrimination laws did not eliminate racism. Perhaps they contributed to less racism, but we can’t be sure that such laws are not the result of lessening racism. From a scientific perspective, integration does not reduce racism (and often increases it). The laws were designed to promote integration.

Saying that human behavior can’t be legislated is analogous to saying that environmental conditions don’t influence behavior. Government legislation, markets and corporations, ideas, moral systems, and more, all shape and direct human behavior. It’s impossible to imagine it otherwise.

If Rob C is really making the narrower claim that a law can’t dictate how you think, then this is partly true in the sense that despite what a law says, you can still disagree with it. But this isn’t behavior, it’s thought. But this claim is also partly false. Take education policy. If the government mandates that students learn about history, then students nationwide will learn about history to one degree or another, and this might influence thought and behavior (personal reading choices, the choice of a college major, etc.).

Rob C seems to be making the naive and trivial claim that government policy does not absolutely determine human behavior. Of course, and o one believes this in this first place. But between doing nothing and doing something there’s still a lot that can be accomplished through carefully crafted policy.

He then writes “Adolescent angst and cruelty cannot be eliminated with new laws.” It’s irrelevant as to whether a behavior can be entirely eliminated or not. The question is whether policy can substantially impact behavior, and there’s overwhelming evidence it can. Imagine two schools. In School A there is no anti-bullying policy and teachers look the other way. In School B there is an anti-bullying policy that mandates expulsion from school for first offenders. Which school do you suppose will have less bullying, all things being equal?

It’s not a choice of one or the other. Much tighter anti-bullying policies, especially ones sensitized to the special plight of GLBT students, could easily work. Accompanying this must be, of course, the slow and hard work (as Rob C mentions) of social change.

Not sure how Rob C can claim that from a scientific perspective integration does not reduce racism. Yes when integration was first introduced, in many areas there was outrage over it. Mainly from the parents of the students. As time goes by the students on the other hand being in an environment where they actually dealt with the “other” came to see that they are not the evil people their parents claimed them to be. As time went by racism became less. Will it ever go away? Probably not as many people feel their must be someone they can look down on. However that does not mean we should not attempt to lessen things like racism. However the real issue, is that these people do not want there to be a lessing of hatred towards gay people, they want there to be an increase.

[...] in a debate this week (h/t the Minnesota Independent), Tom Emmer waxed on about the subject of bullying. And while he noted that as the father of seven [...]

Rob C makes an excellent point. I made a similar point in a previous article on this website about this issue.

http://minnesotaindependent.com/64047/anti-gay-group-organizes-in-anoka-schools-as-community-deals-with-gay-suicides

The supporters of creating new laws try to say that being homosexual is similar to the color of your skin. But that is not the case, this is a false comparison.

Laws do help to control and change opinions, but in this case a law that does not allow a student to believe that homosexuality is wrong is a direct violation of our freedom of religion. Therefore, these laws would be clearly unconstitutional. Also if these laws would elevate the status of homosexuals over other students, they would again be clearly unconstitutional.

Tom Emmer is the best man for the job to govern MN. He has a clear vision for restoring the economy, creating jobs and understands the value of our constituational rights to freedom of religion.

20 years of Conservative misrule have severely threatened this state – produced one budget crisis after another; attempted repeatedly to turn back the tide of advancing civil rights; taken a complete head-in-the-sand approach to the resource and environmental challenges of the 21st Century – and Tom Emmer promises continuation of that misrule. Tom Emmer is the worst person in public service in this state today, and that INCLUDES Michele Bachmann.

The wussification of America continues.

I’ll never understand the mindset of people who not only prefer living in the Nanny State, but who actually demand it.

Katie B. – The conservative leadership is the only thing that has saved our state from the same failing liberal policies that have bankrupted California and the nation under Obama’s leadership.

Tom Emmer is the greatest leader that the state could ask for.

@Tim Conservatives don’t study history, do they? Because the issue in California has nothing to do with liberalism and everything to do with the mob rule that conservatives wish to pass as democracy. Thanks to an ill-gotten constitutional amendment, Proposition 13 (in 1978) California must approve all tax increases by either 2/3 in the legislature or a public plebiscite. Guess how often either of those have happened. So the people demand service after service, and the legislature is effectively forbidden to pay for them out of anything except bonding, which can be passed by a simple majority.

Governing from permanent deficit and borrowing-and-spending is a conservative value, not liberal. And Minnesota has followed in California’s path on that regard. So if you want to fly over the cliff, just stay the course.

Tim: … a law that does not allow a student to believe that homosexuality is wrong is a direct violation of our freedom of religion. Therefore, these laws would be clearly unconstitutional.

The anti-bullying law

According to Tim’s convoluted flawed logic asserting that a law that does not allow a student to believe that homosexuality is wrong is clearly unconstitutional because it intrudes on freedom of religion, laws banning slavery and involuntary servitude including the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution should be unconstitutional because they intrude on a fundamental Christianist’s freedom of religion to follow the Bible literally with the Bible containing passages citing God’s condoning and promoting slavery including laying out rules for such. Sheesh!

As for sexual orientation being an innate characteristic, there is a growing body of evidence that hint at genetic as well as environmental causes. The idea that homosexuality is pathological has long since been abandoned; unfortunately, there is still widespread sexual stigma and prejudice to overcome.

This anti-bullying bill does not dictate what one may think about an issue; rather, it focuses on the serious issue of anti-social behavior. Those who choose not to see this because they are so blinded by their animus towards those who are LGBT are part of the problem, not part of the solution since this bill is comprehensive – not limited to sexual orientation, gender or gender identity.

Governor Patterson in New York just signed into law the Dignity for All Students Act. It is time for Minnesota and the rest of the nation to follow this historical act, and allow all children to reach his or her full potential.

@Katie B. – Nice try, but the failture of liberalism is the reason behind every state and nation has run into economic troubles.

Just look at the success of the conservitive states and nations, like Texas and Germany, as compared to Greece and California that are bankrupt because of their liberal policies.

@Tim, you could always move to Texas then?

@Tim – You are truly hopeless. You have created a little world of illogic where “like me” presses the “win” button and “other” returns a result of “error.” “Liberalism” did not cause the massive structural deficit and debt of the United States no matter how you try to spin it – and if we fail as a nation it will be because your gods, Reagan, Bush and Bush, refused to exercise even a sliver of restraint. America truly owes a debt it can never repay because of those men, and we owe it to China.

@Lane – There is NO evidence that even hints at genetic or any other innate cause of homosexuality. Although the homosexual lobby continues to look under every rock to find something to hold up their preposterous claim so they can gain political power to force the nation into accepting their religion position.

Anti-bullying laws are the beginning of the creation of a theocracy.

It’s not that I don’t want to stop bullying at schools, in which I was also bullied as a kid. But this strategy will destroy our nation.

If you want our nation to remain free from a tyrannical government rule, you cannot support these anti-bullying laws.

Katie B. – Your guy, far-left liberal Obama, has added more to the national debt in his first 19 months of office than all previous presidents combined.

The nation is on the verse of bankruptcy from the failure of liberalism and the continued failure of liberalism.

The housing market collapse that started the global recession that will continue to plague the world was a failure of far-left Congressmen Barney Frank and Chris Dodd’s bills that forces banks to lower lending standards and hand out houses like candy.

Liberalism cannot wash its hands of the destructive path is has creating in the history of our nation and around the world.

Even far-left Fidel Castro of Cuba today admitted the failure of his polices and how they have destroyed the economy of Cuba.

“Portray your enemy with your own weakness.” – Karl Rove

I am utterly astounded that the Dominionist Christians, the ones who themselves argue that they should be free to create a Kingdom of God on Earth – a theocracy ruled by Christian prelates, “soli deo gloria,” are putting forth the idea that anti-bullying laws are the precursor to a theocracy. What theocracy, theocrat? The theocracy that your theocratic masters want to create is one that would line all dissenters against the wall – all atheists, all gays, all lesbians, all transgendered and transsexual people, all people of any religion that disagrees with yours – and shoot us. Your ideology is tyranny. Of course pluralism is oppression to you. Pluralism prevents your religion from utterly dominating the discourse, which to a Dominionist is the same as being silenced. You cannot abide anyone else having a say in governance.

Freedom of speech and freedom of religion do NOT supersede the right to be free from verbal abuse and physical harm. If your religion demands freedom to bully and harass and belittle and lie, your religion deserves to fail and to die off and to be replaced by religions that respect the rights and humanity of other people… or by no religion at all.

@Tim – you of course lie because you have no recourse other than to lie. The debts piled up in the first months of this current administration are bad debts that were contracted by Reagan, Bush, and Bush that have been paid down by this administration. But this is of course the historical pattern – Republicans run up the debt, spending like sailors who have just come into port, knowing that when they finally get run out of office, their Democratic successors will be forced to pick up the check. Just like a drunken frat boy who knows that Mommy will sooner or later have to pay for everything.

Women really should run things.

@Tim

You wrote:

“It’s not that I don’t want to stop bullying at schools, in which I was also bullied as a kid. But this strategy will destroy our nation.

If you want our nation to remain free from a tyrannical government rule, you cannot support these anti-bullying laws.”

“Anti-bullying laws are the beginning of the creation of a theocracy.”

Is this a joke? No, this is the sad state of hyperbolic excess typical of populist conservatism.

An anti-bullying law will “destroy” our nation?
Freedom from “tyrannical government rule”?

One is immediately reminded of Richard Hofstadter’s ‘The Paranoid Style in American Politics’ where he wrote:

“I call it the paranoid style simply because no other word adequately evokes the sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy that I have in mind.”

And,

“The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of conspiracy in apocalyptic terms — he traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization… he does not see social conflict as something to be mediated and compromised, in the manner of the working politician. Since what is at stake is always a conflict between absolute good and absolute evil, what is necessary is not compromise but the will to fight things out to a finish.”

Also, your characterization of recent political-economic history is utterly off the mark. I suspect though that this is standard fair among the Limbaugh listeners and Fox viewers.

@Katie B. – Your hatred of our nations freedoms are evident in your writings. I have obviously brought into light what you really want, a theocracy.

The religion of Christianity is the most tolerant religion that the world has even know. It is the tolerance of Christianity that allows for open discussion of ideas, while providing support to respect and care for each other and allows for all people to have a say in our government.

Our school system already has ways to discourage bullying that do not impose on our freedoms of religion. Perhaps they need to be reviewed, but creating anti-bullying laws that violate our constitution is not a good strategy.

@Katie B. – Regarding your comment, “Women really should run things.”

It depends on the woman. Sarah Palin for example is an excellent choice.

re: theocracy – what theocracy? You’re the one who was gawping about creating social policy based on discouraging “sin” – which is a strictly Judeo-Christian concept, and the idea that the law should oppress “sinners” is one that appears in Christian governments again and again and again. Any government that bases its public policy on the Judeo-Christian concept of “sin” is perforce a theocracy.

“The American government is in no sense based upon the Christian religion.” – Treaty of Tripoli, 1803. Yet the Christians time and again, to America’s detriment and peril, choose to force their religion into everyone’s lives.

@Tim,

Merely accusing someone of wanting a theocracy without providing evidence may be a rhetorical strategy that YOU find convincing, but no one else does.

If there is something unconstitutional about an anti-bullying law that’s especially sensitive to GLBT students, then you haven’t mentioned what it is.

Your characterization of Christianity is wildly misleading. The faith has a rich and varied history, with some strains of Christianity being indeed tolerant and open, while other expressions are filled with paranoia, profound ignorance and unreason, and hatred. The latter are usually conservative in orientation.

There is no one Christian Truth with regard to homosexuality. How could there be? The Bible itself is unclear on this. Modern scholarship only complicates the issue for the conservative. For instance, take the book ‘The Man Jesus Loved’, which is a scholarly argument favoring the view that Jesus himself was gay.

For instance, take the book ‘The Man Jesus Loved’, which is a scholarly argument favoring the view that Jesus himself was gay.

Which was written by a “what”??? yup good grief

I agree that the home is where children should learn good citizenship and respect for others. But as we can see from the bullies referenced in this article, and from the behavior of Emmer’s own son, not all families live up to that ideal. When families fail to teach their children the proper values of society, it falls on the educational system to make up the shortfall. The school system is responsible for educating the next generation of citizens and, as part of the government, they have an implicit obligation to do so in a manor that promotes the general welfare and domestic tranquility. Kids get the best education in a peaceful and supportive environment, not one that tolerates harassment and abuse. It is an unfortunate fact of life that prejudice is also learned at home. When anti-social behavior is learned in the home, it falls to the school system to teach acceptable behavior or society suffers along with the individual students.

Emmer should not protect these bullies through empty rationalizations and governmental policies, even if he does sympathize with them.

Tom Emmer and his selective morality are bad for Minnesota, and the country.

I think it’s obvious here that Tim supports the legalization of rape. Since, you know, anti-rape laws only seek to create a theocracy. I don’t know how, but by golly, that’s my argument, and it’s a pretty damn good’un, because I said it!

Now, if we could all just bow our heads and pray to Raptor Jesus in the name of the Holy Gravy, maybe we’ll be able to avoid having hot sauce poured over this heathenish nation.

You folks seem to be missing the issue here. School are there for teaching, not inforcing laws.

“School are there for teaching”

We’ll of course it are, and it aren’t doing too good a job of it with social problems disruptioning all the time.

Not “inforcing” laws??

Sure, we could stop enforcing laws on school grounds – if we want to teach in an environment of lawlessness and anarchy, and if we could find teachers willing to work in such an insane environment. But our children deserve better than that, and our future NEEDS better than that.

@Dano

I know. That book-learnin’, higher ed stuff, all those crazy professors with their funny ideas, that dangerous freethinking, all those questions, that subversive skepticism–it’s all corruptin’ our youth and gettin’ them to think incorrect thoughts.

Isn’t it time we insist on affirmative action for conservatives in our universities? Don’t we need people in education who insist on stuff like absolutes, holding the line, not questioning things too much, drawing sharp boundaries between what can be discussed and thought and what can’t be? Ya know, patriotic and pro-American, traditional ejucashun?

Which reminds me of a good laugh I had upon reading where at a lecture, half the people in the audience up and left when the man at the podium listed Liberty University founded by Jerry Falwell among his credentials when he introduced himself. Ideology and scholarship are two different things with the latter held in far greater esteem in the real world.

@Eric,
The book is tripe at best. I’m all for free thinking but this is ridiculous so please don’t talk down to me with your “citidiot” ways. BTW my wife coined that one last weekend!

Oh, it seems we have a country bumpkin in our midst! Joy! Joy! Joy!

BTW, Dano, that was a very informative book review – assuming you actually read the book. NOT!

Laner,
Suburbanite dude, though I do appreciate country people way more than those I try not to run over on their bikes on my way home through MPLS.

Why the hell would read that bs? Have YOU read it city boy?

@Dano – I have a great book for you to read.

“The Born Gay Hoax”
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08a/born_gay_hoax/TheBornGayHoax.pdf

Dano,

I’m willing to bet you haven’t even read or thought about the book’s arguments. You just “know” it’s “tripe at best.” Translation: it disagrees with your dogmatic preconcpetions. Therefore, regardless of the evidence or arguments, it must be wrong. You don’t need to learn because, well, everything you need to know is already in your head, and if it’s in your head it must be correct.

Is there anything I got wrong here?

Eric

@Katie B., Eric – The theocracy that you want to impose on the public is unconstitutional. You would have to find a gay activist judge to re-interpret the constitution in order to create your theocracy just like in California with Prop 8.

This is not Iran. We have a constitution that some have argued calls for a separation of church and state. Your goal to create an Iran like regime cannot be tolerated in a free nation.

If we create laws to force teachers into religious beliefs then why not create so more laws to bring bible teaching back into the schools.

Tim,

Trying to prevent bullying of gay and lesbian students doesn’t rest on any theological beliefs, nor does it favor one religion over another, or any religion at all.

Your ploy here is obvious. You’re fed up with not being able to impose Christian/religious conservative values and beliefs on the schools and society. You’re angry about being cornered into the charge, however accurately, of trying to impose your theocratic agenda. You then think that if you reverse the language game, you can put all the moderates, liberals and leftists on the defensive.

Unfortunately for you, language can’t mean anything you want it to mean just because it might gain superficial political traction, especially among the less educated.

Please provide any evidence at all that there is any intent afoot to “create laws to force teachers into religious beliefs.”

There is none, actually. You’re simply not aware of how distorted and paranoid your thinking is.

Tim,

Did you actually read the judge’s decision in the Prop 8 case? I suspect you didn’t, because you probably assume in advance that any decision you disagree with will be the result of an “activist” judge.

Do you actually believe that any conservative leaning decision must be on the basis of sound legal reasoning, while every moderate or liberal one must be a form of “activism”?

Eric

@Eric – The schools are bad enough already, why add the burden of your theocratic agenda onto our teachers? We need to give the teachers a break and let them teach our kids to read and write.

Leave your religious ideas out of our schools. Teach your own kids your religion. It’s bad enough to face a theocracy of Iran, let alone face the gay theocratic agenda to impose their religion on the minds of our youth.

The judge’s decision on the Prop 8 case was a pure bias religious opinion based on his personal lifestyle, while disregarding the democratic will of the people – an act of unconstitutionality and disregard for our nation as a democracy. A clear example of how theocratic the homosexual activist’s agenda is. If these people ran the nation, our freedoms would be gone. They would send us back to the ages of a radical dictator. Yet they call there idea ‘progress’ and try to trick the public by replacing words like ‘love’ for ‘hate’, all the while they are filled with hate and enraged with anger at anyone that would dare to question their demands for theocratic rule.

This entire story should be reconsidered. As the evidence proves, homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle that leads to suicidal tendencies and bullying has little to do with it.

All kids are bullied, while the kids that are taught that homosexuality is ok to experiment with by the homosexual lobby, have an increasing rate of suicide.

If we are going to create laws to teach kids that homosexuality is not dangerous and something to experiment with, then we might as well teach them that meth is not dangerous either and they should experiment with it just to see if it they were born to like it.

A better idea is to create extra classed that teach the truth about the dangerous homosexual lifestyle, starting with the 20 year drop in life expectance. These classes would save more lives then anything.

@Tim – to quote Inigo Montoya, “you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Tim,

To be very specific, the “suicidal tendencies” to which you refer, in the full reports on the studies that have been done, specifically refer to depression inflicted as a result of homophobic bigotry. Gay people who grow up in accepting environments tend to grow up well-adjusted and normal. Gay people who grow up in bigoted households where “gay” is used as a slur, tend to have self-esteem problems.

This was said by a trans woman about male socialization but it applies just as easily to hetero socialization and its effects on gay youth: “It is deep and it is troubling; its enactment profoundly deepened my self-loathing and was part of what ultimately sent me spiralling downward. I owned nothing about myself, my dreams, my sexuality, nothing.” – Quinnae Moongazer

Tim,

It’s dawned on me that you possibly don’t understand the meaning of theocratic and theocracy. Typically it means political rule through divine mandate. No one supporting anti-bullying legislation that includes sexual orientation claims that it needs any kind of divine mandate.

Does that help?

You apparently haven’t read Vaughn Walker’s decision on Prop. 8. You merely repeat yourself by claiming that since he’s gay that this determined his decision. When you actually read the decision and find specific flaws in its reasoning, get back to me.

You seem to be a less than clear reasoner in other part of your message. For instance, “If these people ran the nation, our freedoms would be gone.”

Which people? Republican-appointed gay judges? Do they all share some freedom-hating agenda? What would that be? Do you mean to suggest by “our freedoms would be gone” that ALL of our freedoms would be gone? Do they hate gun rights? Freedom of speech? Do they want to make you divorce your wife, burn your Bibles and take drugs? What, exactly are you talking about? Do you even know?

“If we are going to create laws to teach kids that homosexuality is not dangerous…” Where in the anti-bullying legislation is this language? Please give evidence.

Awaiting your response.

Eric

Eric,
I’m glad you know me better than I know myself. I appreciate your “well learned” psychoanalysis. My only point was that I called BS on a book. I completely agree that no student should be bullied b/c they are gay. I’ve read many articles, thesis and books from both points of view and I am calling BS on that basis (regarding the basis of the book). I do not need to read any more to smell an agenda.

Katie B., thank you for quoting Quinnae Moongazer – and connecting the dots between homophobia and depression, low self-esteem in LGBT youth. What a lot of people do not realize is that long-term, society pays a very heavy price as these children as adults work through those issues to reclaim their self-esteem and get their depressive symptoms back under control. Employers are deprived of these people’s productivity. Social services are used thus a cost to taxpayers. And so on. So unnecessary – and all because of the religious-fueled animosity towards LGBT that needs to end as of yesterday.

@Lane – The battle you fight is for power, at the expense of the children that suffer with this curable disorder. Their blood is on your hands.

My goal is to save these children. To do that we need to start educating children about the dangers of homosexuality and help the students that struggle with same-sex relationships so they don’t get cause up in this dangerous lifestyle.

They also need to be warned of the recruiting practices of the homosexual community. Kids without fathers and kids that have been abused should be first to get this training. The training should also instruct kids of the dangers of teasing other kids that look or act different then there peers because their teasing could cause these students to get caught up in this dangerous lifestyle. These are the classes that should be taught in every school.

Dano,

“I do not need to read any more to smell an agenda.” What I find most interesting about your statement is the likely unspoken assumption that you believe there is no agenda present in the Bible itself, or the sources to which you allude.

Unfortunately for the proponent of any view of Jesus’ sexuality, we simply don’t have enough evidence to establish any claim on solid ground. Did Jesus have an active sex life? Was he celibate? Did Jesus masturbate? Was he heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual? No source gives us any grounds for certainty or even strong probabilities on these questions.

“They also need to be warned of the recruiting practices of the homosexual community.”

Speaking from personal experience, apparently.

“What I find most interesting about your statement is the likely unspoken assumption that you believe there is no agenda present in the Bible itself, or the sources to which you allude.”

It’s the WORD of God knucklehead. I feel sorry for your parents, should’ve aborted when they had the chance.

@Dano

That a religion’s holy book claims to be the infallible word of god, does not make it so.

@Katie B. – Regarding your personal judgement of the credibility of the Bible.

Consider the work of Josh McDowell, with over 35 years of reseach, in his book “The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict”, which detailed the historical evidence for Christianity and the accuracy of the Bible.

Or consider the famus Journalist, Lee Strobel, who as an Atheist tried to dis-prove the scriptures but ended up with no choice but to conclude that Jesus is who he said he was in his book “The Case for Christ: A Journalist’s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus”

These and many other credible works are why the Bible remains the most practical and popular book that the world has every know.

This is why the wisdom found in scripture is not something to take lightly.

@Tim -

G.K. Chesterton couldn’t convince me, and he is far more eloquent and persuasive than you could ever hope to be (for that matter, he’s far more eloquent and persuasive than the actual Christian scriptures).

Many years ago, I was given, and read “The Case for Christ.” It was not written by a skeptical journalist (seeing as how it was written in 1998, over a decade after he started to work as a pastor at an Evangelical megachurch) or even a credulous believer – it is written by a cynical, aggressive salesman trying to gain customers for his business, and like any such salesman, Strobel glosses over, redirects and when necessary belittles any criticism of his product. I choose to respect my intellect more than to fall for such a sales pitch.

[...] opposed by Emmer as a state rep, would also get the ax under an Emmer administration, the candidate told an audience at the Minnesota State Fair debate. But what about the three bullying-related student suicides in [...]

UGH. I won’t be surprised if the book cover for “The Case for Christ” has that same high gloss as the literature distributed as part of the various scams where you can get rich quick for doing next-to-nothing and also the miraculous (and way over-priced) supplements that promise restored health and sexual vigor and youth …

If I see that certain high gloss, I move on! UGH.

@Lane – You’d be surprised the number of pastors – of many Christian denominations – who actually ARE atheists. They preach the Gospel every week and don’t believe a word of it.

heh heh

Ja, as they say, “God works in mysterrrrrriiiiiious ways.”

Dano wrote: “It’s the WORD of God knucklehead. I feel sorry for your parents, should’ve aborted when they had the chance.”

You don’t really have a well-developed sense of irony, do you?

And here I thought the Bible, and by extension your god, had an unambiguous moral teaching about abortion…and homosexuality. Oh well, no book is perfect.

Just like storks deliver babies, this alleged holy book essentially dropped out of the sky as is, you seem to be saying.

Early internecine contestation between political, moral, and local authorities doesn’t suggest any agenda-setting, of course; the vagaries of memory and oral transmission and the human tendency to confabulate–there’s no inadvertent tainting of pristine divine textual authority here; the New Testament’s contradictions–nothing to see here.

I suppose next you’re going to tell me the Bible comes complete with its own exegetical schema, contains more scientific insight than Einstein, and anticipated in detail every moral question of the 20th century. Oh, and it lauds assault rifle ownership and Tom Emmer for governor. That would be quite some book you’ve got there!

Always remember–if it’s in a book, it must be true.

If you’re actually aware of the best critical Biblical scholarship, you automatically know that McDowell and Strobel (but especially McDowell–what a simpleton!) are to it as Danielle Steel is to literature.

PBS NOVA has a fascinating episode of how the Bible came into being. Details of “The Bible’s Buried Secrets” can be found at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bible/.

“God knucklehead”? Blasphemer!

Katie B. – You do have a point about some pastors. Some preach the Gospel every week and don’t believe a word of it.

Like the ones that claim to be Christians, yet don’t have the faith to stand up and call homosexuality what the Bible says it is – sin.

Tim,

You seem unusually fascinated with homosexuality as a moral issue, most particularly in light of the fact that Jesus had nothing to say about it.

You’d think that given all the religious right condemnation of homosexuality and homosexuals, that this would be because Jesus clearly spoke on it. He was oddly silent.

@Eric

No kidding… It’s like guys who are all anxious about trans women hitting on them, and then get all offended if one doesn’t find him particularly interested in him…

And ladies and gentlemen, this is what happens when you fail to proofread correctly – you start writing “doesn’t find him particularly interesting,” finish writing “doesn’t find herself particularly interested in him,” and forget to go back and correct the pronoun…

I think Tim doth protest too much about homosexuality.

[...] over the past year in Minnesota’s largest school district, Anoka-Hennepin. Over the past year, seven current or recently graduated middle school and high school students have taken their lives, including three students who were gay or [...]

Katie B. – Here is the reason you continue to reject all evidence proving the Bible is the inspired infallible Word of God and by definision cannot be anything less than completely true.

I Cor 2:14-16

“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
“For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”

Without the renewal of your mind, (Rom. 12:2 – “be transformed by the renewing of your mind”) you will never be able to understand the things of God, intellectually or emotionally.

This is way few find the truth (Matthew 7:13). Yet you are without excuse (Romans 1:20) because you have turned against the Lord.

The reason the Bible has remained thousands of years of critics and remains the only true source of understanding God and Man, is because its words were not thought up from man.

“Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:20)

This is why…

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)

Your only hope of ever having a peaceful relationship with the Lord is to repent and beg Him to reveal himself to you.

“I left the homosexual lifestyle a few years back.” Ben posted.

Congratulations, i guess. For most gays i know, being homosexual was not a life-threatening lifestyle, unless some thug thought that “queers” deserve beatdowns.

Why is it that some conservatives believe bullying is bad, unless it involves bullying gay or lesbian neighbors? And then, they can’t quite condemn it, offer added protection so less of it goes on?

Katie B.- If you just had the right bible browsing software, you can copy & paste lots of different phrases from the bible and make up whatever you need to say to prove your point. Somewhere there are classes that teach you the basics. Problem is, they don’t teach how to avoid sounding like a loony drug pusher.

@Tim – This entire thread of argument is wholly irrelevant. I intend not to indulge your desire to make somebody else upset on a lovely Saturday.

This law is not an infringement on religious freedom. This law allows a student to believe homosexuality is wrong. This law does not allow a student or school employee to harm another student. Tim knows this. Tim likes attention. Tim likes shiny things. Most importantly, Tim is wrong.

FWIW, in New Zealand:

“The Charities Commission says the Exodus Ministries Trust Board is not performing any public benefit, because being gay is not a mental disorder and does not need curing.

“The trust is affiliated with the United States-based Exodus Global Alliance, which promises ‘freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ’.”

There is now a similar effort underway in Canada.

http://www.gaynz.com/articles/publish/2/article_9254.php

The full decision (only FIFTEEN pages) by the New Zealand Charities Commission can be found at http://www.charities.govt.nz/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=n67zG23d3EE%3d&tabid=250

Gee whiz, Dano, when you put it like that, everything you say must be right on the money. You’re my hero, a mental giant, or something like that.

@Dave

I’m not sure if Dano is an actual human being or a trollbot.

Dano, kindly knock it off with the misogynistic name-calling. You know better than that.

Oooh, name calling followed by the super-original and clever kitchen joke. You really elevated the status of this conversation, Dano.

@Lane, Katie B. – You guys don’t realize that scripture has the answers to all your questions. It even predicts that evil will grow around the world just before the return of Jesus, in which homosexuality is a part of. (2 Timothy 3)

Scripture also predicts that everyone who wants to live a godly life will be persecuted, just as the homosexual theocracy is being established in order to criminalize Christianity.

“Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.” (2 Timothy 3:11)

Just as the world hates Jesus Christ, the world will hate everyone that delights in Him.

Scripture also predicts that impostors (false Christians) will lead many away from Christ by claiming to be Christians while denying His commands.

“But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” “… holding to a form of godliness (pretending to be righteous), although denying its power (having no fear of God by refusing to follow His commands)”

Since the scriptures predict an increase in the number of hypocrites that claim to be Christians, why get excited about these things? Don’t put your faith in the growing number of hypocrites as evidence that homosexuality is not evil. Why put your faith in their lack of faith? It is not reasonable to risk your soul (eternal life) on the waning faith of hypocrites.

Why be deceived by things that have already been predicted to happen just before the return of Jesus?

And one last thing,

Because scripture predicts these things, your involvement makes no different. You gain nothing from your involvement and you serve no one but the enemies of Jesus Christ. In the end, you will not be rewarded for your efforts, but tossed in the lake of fire with the rest of the enemies of Jesus Christ.

Today is the day that the Lord has made. (Psalms 118) Why waste another day outside His kingdom when one day in His courts is better than a thousand elsewhere” (Psalms 84:10)

Give your life to Jesus Christ today and begin renewing your mind with the mind of Christ.

Is it “renewing” your mind, or starving it of something? ‘Cos all the people I have ever come across that sound like this guy are a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

“Today is the day that the Lord has made”

I’m pretty sure that was Saturday…

“but tossed in the lake of fire ”

Don’t you mean the Cuyahoga river? They put that out a long time ago, like in the seventies or something like that.

“Why waste another day outside His kingdom when one day in His courts is better than a thousand elsewhere”

And yet, you are still here. Do you need a reservation? No? What’s the holdup?

Dano, I’ve deleted your comment as it was in violation of our comment policy. Please keep the conversation civil.

@Tim

Why should I respect a prophet who couldn’t even fulfill his most basic prophecy?

Jesus told his apostles “Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.” (Mk. 13:30). At an average of 6 generations per century, and assuming we’re measuring the longest-lived members of a generation who live for about a century, as opposed to the average member, he’s about 323.5 generations late.

Before you bring up the “generation=race” interpretation, the use of the Hebrew word “generation” to mean “race of people,” btw, is a latter-day reinterpretation designed to make the prophecy unfalsifiable – it does not bear the scrutiny of contemporary use.

So why should I believe “prophecies” that are designed to be so vague as to be “perfectly applicable” for centuries, when the most testable one failed miserably?

Useless prophecies are useless. QED.

@Katie B. – I like your style, excellent question.

In Mark 13:30, when Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done” He was talking about the generation that sees the beginning of the fulfillment of end-time prophecies.

Jesus spoke those words immediately after He delivered the parable of the fig tree and described His Second Coming on the clouds in power and great glory, so He clearly was not referring only to the calamities surrounding the current generation, but to everything that He had foretold – both the Jewish Temple’s destruction and the end of the world in which evil would become mature.

Further evidence of the approaching end times can be found in one of the most amazing historical events in the last 2000 years in the rebirth of the state of Israel in 1948.

In the passage you mentioned Jesus spoke about the destruction of Israel. After Israel was destroyed in 70 A.D. by Titus of Rome and scattered around the world for 2000+ years, the people of the land promised by God returned to re-establish the state of Israel – just as prophesied in Ezekiel 37. Ezekiel 37 says that God will bring his people back to the land of Israel and re-establish the nation. This never happen since 70 AD until 1948.

In Acts 1:6-8, the disciples thought Jesus was going to stay on earth and restore the kingdom of Israel when they asked. “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

As the king of the Jews, it was natural for a king to restore his kingdom. But in Luke Jesus tells us He will not return until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

“Jerusalem shall be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:4) In this statement, Jesus says that the city of Jerusalem which is the capital of Israel will be trampled until the end of the age of the Gentiles is fulfilled. The age of the Gentiles is a period of time in which the gospel would be preached throughout the world so that all would have a chance to come to know the King.

This means that the Jewish re-establishment of Jerusalem is a significant event that signifies the period of the Gentiles is coming to an end, and Israel is once again becoming the focus of the world as it prepares for the return of Jesus and has become surrounded by enemies.

Jesus will return, “When the Son of man shall come in his glory … then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations . . . ” (Matthew 25:31,32). As the king of the Jews, Jesus is planning His return to setup his kingdom in the city of Jerusalem.

Back to the verse your quoted, Mark 13:30, if the generation that is alive when Jerusalem is established will not pass away until all these things take place including the return of Jesus, then we are living in that generation.

Time is short, give your life to Jesus Christ today and be saved.

“That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:19).

@Tim – You brand yourself a fairly desperate liar. Mark didn’t use metaphor that deeply. Mark was a STORYTELLER, and his gospel was a storyteller’s gospel – recorded in Koine Greek because that was the language most commonly spoken at the time (and thus, the language that he probably spoke himself). Backing this up, Mark uses the narrative present frequently, and the phrase “and immediately” – a common storyteller trick to get the audience’s attention – shows up more times in his gospel than in the other three Canonical Gospels combined. He’s clearly a talented storyteller – he’s my favorite of the four by far – but he has his limits and his language is a bit rough.

You’ve managed to trap yourself into circular reasoning where your beliefs must be justified in the real world or the real world is wrong, not your beliefs. This is the principle flaw in Christian exegetics – trying to modify the world to fit the Word, rather than the Word to the world. When Mark said “this generation,” he meant THIS generation, the generation of people listening to him. NOT some vague random generation millennia from then.

Oh pffft.

Israel is a modern democracy. I doubt the Israelites would allow someone to seize Jerusalem to re-establish his kingdom.

Despite being the “King of Jews,” Jews do not accept Jesus as the true Messiah for various reasons.

It’s been 62 years since the re-establishment of Israel on May 14, 1948. There’s still a lot of people on this planet that still doesn’t know Jesus – and really couldn’t care less.

It’s oft said that whoever wrote the book of Revelations must have been on an opium high during its creation.

Tim, it would be more ethical for you to set up your own website and take your proselytizing there.

@Katie B. – The passage your mentioned in Mark 13:30 is also found in (Matthew 24:34) and (Luke 21:32).

Therefore your idea that Mark was just a good storyteller does not hold water. These other passages give more insight into this passage upon further study will lead you to my conclusion.

Also, I sense the spirit of the Lord telling me something more about you. Perhaps a calling.

@Lane – The scripture already detailed how the Jews have rejected Jesus as the Messiah and explains how they will some day turn back to accept him – in which has already begun as a growing number of Jews are becoming Christians.

Scripture does not say that everyone will turn to Jesus, just that the gospel will be preached to all the world. Many will reject Him.

I would setup a website to further discuss these things, if the Lord leads me to do that. He currently has me busy with other things like this conversation with you.

@Tim

I sense the spirit of the Lord telling me that you need to learn more about basic Bible history (possibly more about basic history in general). All of the questions you claim to be irreconcilable, all the evidence you claim to have no explanation other than “infallible word of God” – discounting the Bible’s own claims to veracity – have other answers and other explanations, and those answers and explanations are found in the history books, not in holy books.

@Katie B. – The bible is a history book, the best history book in the world. The bible even contains the history that has yet to unfold and the history of the creation of the world, unlike any other history book you will find.

Why put your faith in history books that clearly change with time and are written by mortals? When you can put your faith in the Words of the Lord that never change “but the word of the Lord stands forever (1 Peter 1:25). History books are inferior, inaccurate, incomplete and biased. Why put your faith in another man’s understanding?

Why even put your faith in your own understanding? If Jesus is the King of the universe and He is coming back to take His place, than any thoughts that are contrary are false.

The depths of your understanding of the scriptures do not matter, as long as you know the King is on the thrown and has a plan to bring about the future as foretold. “Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5)

If your heart’s desire is to have a greater understanding of Him, so be it, but it will cost you your life. “Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.” (Psalm 37:4)

It takes more faith to believe in anything else, than what all the evidence in the world points to – Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father accept through Him. (John 14:6)

This thread has gone way off course.

Tim, it is very easy and very self-congratulatory to think that you have all the answers. As Sir Francis Bacon said, if I begin with doubts, I will end with certainties. But if I begin with certainties, I will end with doubts.

If there is a god/dess, s/he must vastly prefer reasoned inquiry to blind faith because the latter is a betrayal of the intellect that s/he gifted us with.

@Katie B. – This thread has followed your reasoning to try and discredit the Bible as a viable source of truth that all men should live by in order that you could justify your cause and its social engineering implications.

Now that I have exhausted your reasoning with regard to this and shown that scripture does indeed contain the answers to your questions, it is clear to me that God has a different plan for your life and I think you also realize it.

At this time, you appear to be unwilling to take that path or hear the details of it because the cost looks to be too high. So I assure you, you are correct, it will cost you everything on earth to follow after Him but it would be worth it.

Regarding faith vs. the knowledge of the Lord. God does not prefer we have one or the other, He want us to gain both. He wants us to know Him. Knowledge of the Lord builds faith and faith is needed for us to take action under His authority to fulfill His work as ambassadors for Christ.

For those looking for a good resource on the question of GLBT youth and bullying, I just came across this title of interest, published by the U of MN Press:

‘The Right to Be Out: Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity in America’s Public Schools’, by Stuart Biegel.

“A resource for fighting the discrimination and bullying of GLBT students in our public schools.”

Anthony Romero, ED of the ACLU says of the book:

“Biegel breaks new ground in framing the right to be out as a nexus between civil rights and civil liberties; an invaluable analysis of law and educational policy for anyone who might dare to envision a school–or a society–that is truly safe, free and fair for every member of the community.”

Just got the sad word about Billy Lucas in Indiana …

http://www.care2.com/causes/education/blog/bullied-indiana-teen-commits-suicide/

@Lane – Perhaps no one shared the love of Christ with him.

[...] by Emmer as a state rep, would also get the ax under an Emmer administration, the candidate told an audience at the Minnesota State Fair debate. But what about the three bullying-related student suicides in [...]

Tim,

In the space of a few days on MN Independent you’ve transformed yourself from gay fear monger to unctuous proselytizer who is so very, very concerned about GLBT youth.

Far from not having heard the “love of Christ”, it’s highly likely that Billy’s attackers were virtually steeped in this “love” far too often.

The messages pouring forth from the National Organization for Marriage, the rhetorically bullying bigots like Emmer, and many conservative Christian ministers, all form a chorus telling GLBT people everywhere that they’re less than fully human, that’s it’s open season on discrimination and mistreatment.

You may think this is a bit hyperbolic, but I don’t think it is at all. When you go so far as to concoct lies about the supposed threat gay marriage poses to heterosexual marriage and the “traditional” family and to religious freedom, when you repeat the dirty and dishonest propaganda that gays “recruit”, what you’re doing is authorizing the creation of threatening otherness. You’re activating the primordial psychological pattern of the mortal threat, and when such a threat it present, it needs to be stamped out. What you and other right-wing bigots are doing is laying the psychological groundwork for violence, whether or not you actually intend to do so. What’s reprehensible even if you don’t intend it is that you’re willing to incite and stoke this ancient human response to threat for your abject little political agenda. In other words, if you can manage to dehumanize a segment of the population to make cultural and political gains, that’s fine with you.

Another segment of our population, and I think it’s growing daily, even though they may never articulate their views in these terms, realizes that these traditionalist patterns of thought and behavior are no longer tolerable in a world that wants to grow in its humanity and inclusiveness.

The “love of Christ”? No one needs that kind of “love”, and the sooner our society can grow up from the benighted worldview that represents, the better it will be.

[...] and the Republican gubernatorial candidate (that I loathe with all of my being) Tom Emmer have both voted against anti-bulling legislation that would help to prevent the tragic circumstances under which these kids felt that their only [...]

I think it’s important to remember that children are dead. Children who could have been
alive if there had been laws to protect them. Even if you believe that a fifteen-year-old is an
evil sinner, do you really think he deserves to die?

People who try to justify this are disgusting.

[...] such as Tom Emmer, the current Republican candidate for governor in Minnesota — a candidate financially supported [...]

[...] In Minnesota, Republican gubernatorial candidate Tom Emmer said he would not sign the anti-bullying Safe Schools For All bill because “I don’t want the [...]

[...] – Gubernatorial candidate Tom Emmer (R-MN): would not sign the anti-bullying Safe Schools For All bill because “I don’t want the government” instead of parents to be on “the front line of defense of our children.” [...]

[...] In Minnesota, Republican gubernatorial candidate Tom Emmer said he would not sign the anti-bullying Safe Schools For All bill because “I don’t want the [...]

[...] In Minnesota, Republican gubernatorial candidate Tom Emmer said he would not sign the anti-bullying Safe Schools For All bill because “I don’t want the [...]

Cutting through the religious crap, how about a law that says “do unto others as you would have them do you” or something like that. Bullying means your brain and social skills are subpar. Nip it in the bud, at the schools. The punishment, training, whatever should be harsh. How many people really become successful in life by bullying?. Sorry, but no one likes a bully. Bullys end up homeless, drug addicts, divorced, unemployed or killed off if they don’t get nipped.

[...] School advocates say anti-bullying laws needed, Emmer says no … – DFLer Mark Dayton recalled a story a decade ago in Rochester when a Somali student was beaten by a group of students because of his country of origin — a factor currently not included in Minnesota anti-bullying laws — and that the city … Spread the word Stop Bullying: [...]

[...] so many back flips to deny the presence of homophobia?  I asked this in the last post about the Anoka-Hennepin district.  I have to wonder about it in this case as [...]

[...] their own equity policy or applying best practices in education. Because professionals in the education community of Anoka-Hennepin, like their Minneapolis S.D. neighbors, know that schools must “incorporate LGBT themes in [...]

[...] the last two years, nine teens in Anoka-Hennepin schools have committed suicide, several of whom were gay and reportedly acted as a result of being bullied, according to The Minnesota [...]

[...] the last two years, nine teens in Anoka-Hennepin schools have committed suicide, several of whom were gay and reportedly acted as a result of being bullied, according to The Minnesota [...]

[...] the last two years, nine teens in Anoka-Hennepin schools have committed suicide, several of whom were gay and reportedly acted as a result of being bullied, according to The Minnesota [...]

[...] district that falls in her Congressional district had committed suicide over the last two years. Several of those students were gay and reportedly acted as a result of being bullied, according to The Minnesota [...]