Kline to push for controversial religious school vouchers

You have miss-represented the parents that pay for the public educational system.

“parents that will allow them to spend taxpayer money on religious schooling”

The money parents pay in taxes for the public educational system is not someone else’s money. It is their money and they should no longer be discriminated against by the government in using their money to improve the education of their children. If filtering money through the government causes a controversy over government sponsored religion, then we should remove the government from being the middle man and let parents keep their money and educate their children as they see fit.

And this clearly illustrates why the Department of Education should be abolished. So that the nation could restore its freedom of religion, which is guaranteed by our constitution, rather than the religion that is currently being taught by the DOE.

Tim

What religion is being taught by the DOE?? And how do we NOT have freedom of religion?? Now that I think about it, we do need to restore freedom of religion in the US. Freedom for Muslims, Bhudists, Christians, Wikans, Jews, and all other religions as guaranteed by our constitution.

Tim,
You’ve got exactly backwards! If you get eliminate the middle-man (government) for your education wants, do I get to spend my money only for roads I drive on? It’s my choice, isn’t it? Your perception of the common good is all messed up. You don’t get to pick and choose where your tax dollars go — our government (we the people) all benefit from collected tax dollars…. it’s for the common good of ALL. Sheesh!

Minnesota’s state constitution says that the state government will provide a free k-12 education to all children.

But it doesn’t say the state will provide a bricks and mortar building, hire teachers as public employees, or provide transportation, lunch or any of the other amenities that are determined and controlled by the bureaucracy.

Providing a voucher for $10,000 for each child to his or her parents would enable parents to send their children to any school they choose, religious or secular, which would meet the state constitutional requirements. This could be paid for with the savings from closing all the public schools and eliminating all the staff for those schools who failed to attract enough customers to stay open.

Tim and Dennis,

You guys really want to withdraw from life and society, don’t you?

Tim–It’s my money, too.

Dennis–Glad to see you haven’t surrendered in your fight with reality. Read the Minnesota Constitution sometime. Start with article I, section 16.

Funding religious education is a direct violation of the first amendment.

For those who feel that the tax money belongs to the people, let’s take a look:
1.31% of the federal budget goes to the Department of Education. The amount of the people’s money allocated at the federal level for education would be 1.31% of the net federal taxes paid. We could give anyone who wants to send their kids to a parochial school a 1.31% tax deduction on their 1040 so they can use their money on the education of their choice. They can also use their own money for the rest of the cost not covered by that 1.31% deduction.

Most of the per-student money is not coming from *their* money, it is coming from OUR money – the other taxpayers, the ones who have no responsibility to support their religion.

If people want to opt out of public education, fine! It will cut costs for the rest of us. Your individual liberty at work! Just be prepared to foot the entire bill yourself, personal responsibility being so important.

It would go against conservative economic principles to prop-up failing private schools, just as it would be wrong to subsidize private enterprise. If the Catholic schools are failing financially, then we should let them fail.

The country has a vested interest in an educated population. But considering the importance of science in our future, a religious education does not meet that criteria. The commitment is to educate, not to spend money to educate.

Keep your theocratic hands off MY tax dollars!

People who want ten thousand dollars to send their kids to private schools are not paying then thousand dollars in taxes.

If tax dollars were used to fund Madrasahs Tim and Dennis would be having fits.

@Scott
Nonsense. I don’t care where a parent redeems his kids’ education vouchers. That’s their business. You people are the ones who vehemently oppose school vouchers because they might not be used in a manner in which YOU approve, apparently.

@Randy
re: Article 1 sec 16.
“… nor shall any money be drawn from the treasury for the benefit of any religious societies or religious or theological seminaries. ”

Do you think that St. John’s or St. Thomas hasn’t benefitted from government money? Is that what you’re saying? If a kid gets a government grant to go to college, are you saying he can’t use it at a catholic college? Ha!

If a kid can use a Pell grant at St. Kate’s, she should be able to use a school voucher to go to Cretin Derham Hall.

Tim wrote:

“…let parents keep their money and educate their children as they see fit.”

Immediately I see two major problems with this.

1. Public surveys consistently reveal that the public is shockingly ignorant in all academic areas–history, politics, science, geography, and more. A little over half the college educated population (depending on the source, roughly 26%) is highly literate, and then literacy falls off from there. A large portion of the population is marginally literate.

On this basis it would seem that the last thing we want most parents to do is to educate their children as they see fit. Ignorance and stupidity do not make good teachers.

Many people view education as indoctrination into sectarian beliefs, not as the generation of minds that can think, question and doubt. My sense is that this is the primary motivation for calls, like Tim’s, for sectarian schools. These people want to minimize their kids’ exposure to anything–ideas or people–that would weaken dogmatic beliefs. Then there are those, like me, who see one of education’s supreme tasks as the demolition of dogmatic forms of belief.

2. The public school system, despite all its flaws, creates shared meanings and values. It enhances the ability of citizens to communicate across differences and arrive at democratic solutions.

What happens then if we abolish the Department of Education, public schools, and national standards, and give parents the option of establishing whatever educational systems they want? The balkanization of the country.

Imagine the many thousands of religious sects in this country and all of its secular ideological diversity, with each pulling away from everything and everyone that would contaminate its purist vision of belief. On one side of town we’d see Christian fundamentalist sect X teaching that all of modern science is bunk if it contradicts the Bible, the separation of church and state is a myth, and the abject superstition that the End Times is nigh and students better be prepared for Armageddon. A half mile away there’d be a conservative Catholic school teaching teaching its dogmas, one of which would be that evangelicals are not true Christians. Over there, two Muslim schools, one Shia, the other Sunni. We’d probably see Scientology schools springing up.

If we want a society that has even less trust, less possibility for democratic discussion, then by all means let’s all break off into ghettoized sects and insular communities.

Tim–what’s wrong with educating your kids at home after school and on weekends about your religious views?

“If a kid can use a Pell grant at St. Kate’s, she should be able to use a school voucher to go to Cretin Derham Hall.”

So if some sectarians are already violating the state constitution, we should throw out the constitution instead of enforcing it?

Is this the conservative idea of enforcing the constitution? Ha!

“Funding religious education is a direct violation of the first amendment.”

BS. Banning people from teaching kids in a calm, quiet, and respectful setting is not a violation of the 1st amendment, no matter how hard you spin it. This is not “respecting the establishment of a religion”. Case closed. It is however an attack on the Government-Union-Liberal monopoly of brain-washing our kids. And if the kids choose to pray in the middle of the day what in God’s name is it any business of yours?

I forgot the final sentence.

“As long as they cover the general curriculum of the state and the kids are passing the tests, why do you care what the name on the building says or if they pray or not?”

Eric stated:

“On this basis it would seem that the last thing we want most parents to do is to educate their children as they see fit. Ignorance and stupidity do not make good teachers.”

Well then, since you must be sooooooooooooo smarter than the rest of us, we should all do what you say King Eric. Such a great display of liberal arrogance.

Oh, and since we have had public eduction controlled by the government/union/liberal triad for more than 50 years, just who is to blame for the ignorance of Americans?

[...] Kline to push for controversial religious school vouchers In United States on November 12, 2010 at 1:12 pm By Andy Birkey | 11.11.10 | Minnisota Independent [...]

Eric, that’s the type of social engineering that’s causing the huge growth in home schooling and charter schools as parents are pulling their kids out of the government schools in droves.

Parents want control over their kids’ education, especially when they see goverment schools as centers of indoctrination in belief systems they don’t agree with. Let parents decide where to send their children and let the state meet their constitutional obligation by providing vouchers redeemable at any school whose curriculum meets the state’s standards.

“Eric, that’s the type of social engineering that’s causing the huge growth in home schooling and charter schools as parents are pulling their kids out of the government schools in droves.”

Dennis, again cite sources.

Dennis, Pell Grants and most aid to higher education is federal. The federal government is not bound by the Minnesota Constitution.

The state government, however, is. If state aid is going to St. Kate’s or St. Thomas, will you join in a constitutional challenge to that improper practice?

“Oh, and since we have had public eduction controlled by the government/union/liberal triad for more than 50 years, just who is to blame for the ignorance of Americans?”

I blame the right-wingers. They are the ones who screech the loudest and manage to make education a highly political football.

Who squawks about teaching evolution?

Who demands that books be banned for promoting an unacceptable thought?

Who denigrates the ideas that schools should have policies against bullying and intimidation of students?

Who works consistently to defund education?

Who promotes proud anti-intellectuals as political leaders and role models?

Oh, and who was the President whose “best” idea for improving schools was putting prayer back in schools?

Who sits on the school boards?

Who runs the schools?

Who do the teachers unions support politically?

Who insists that there’s never enough money for the schools even at $14k per kid?

The people who destroyed our cities are the same people who have destroyed the public schools.

goverment schools as centers of indoctrination in belief systems they don’t agree with

Will someone please tell me what these belief systems supposedly are?
I would guess most writers opposed to public schools actually attended public schools, and managed to obtain a religious education from their family and church. They were not transformed inot liberals either. indoctrination?! Schools are about the only neutral place left.
I attended a Catholic school through grade 10. Went to daily mass and had more prayers throughout the day, as well as religion classes. When I moved to public school I met kids just as moral and normal as we were. Teachers pray in school all the time. I’m sure students do too. No one can stop a silent prayer. If you are sending your son to public school to learn the Bible are you sending your kids to church to learn algebra? Religion is a personal journey. Choose your church and guide your child. Teachers are responsible for academics, but they reinforce moral behavior every day – dealing with bullying, lying, cheating and more. Your complaints are just empty rhetoric.

Attempts to privatize education (i.e., make it profit driven) are severely misguided (i.e., dumb). The reasons private schools do better than public schools is because they spend more money on students and they are able to select students they want in their school. Public schools get all the rejects including learning disabilities, behavior problems, and handicapped students who are very expensive to provide adequate facilities. Public schools also have to deal with students who do not speak English. Expensive students are not wanted in private schools because they are profit driven.

Do we really want to turn the education of our children over to businesses that have profit making as their primary goal instead of the well being and proper education of our students? We need a public education system to insure quality education for all, not just those who can afford it. Vouchers are a scam, an attempt to pretend that everyone can send their kids to quality private schools. Let’s not let our educational system go the way of our health care system.

@Pat – Since the bible was removed from public schools in the 70′s, public schools have changed from the religion of Christianity to the religion of humanism.

It is a myth to think that – “Schools are about the only neutral place left.”

Humanism is the religion that contains the doctrine of self affirmed morality. Humanism is the religions of relativism and postmodernism, which is the belief that truth is relative to culture and the no religion has the corner on truth. This is the religion of atheists, which is why atheists continue to be admired by the humanist religion.

The reason that humanism has been accepted as the religion that can be taught in public schools is because it makes no claims that god exists and therefore is thought to be neutral and politically correct. But in reality humanist have a god and that god is us. If we are our own gods, then sin does not exist and neither does the need to follow Gods commands like ‘love one another’. Our anti-Christian educational system is the source of our failure of capitalism, because capitalism is dependent on a Christian culture to hold business leaders accountable to honest business transactions.

Humanism is not a neutral religion, it is an anti-Christ religion. And it is the religion that is taught in our schools today. You can find it in everything from the history books, to the science books to the ethics classes.

In the early 90′s when I was in school, LOTS of kids brought bibles with them to class. They still do. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

“Who sits on the school boards?”

They are elected by the voters, presumably to reflect their will. It’s not exactly a job for career politicians, if you’ve ever paid attention. Being a member of a school board is seldom, if ever, a full-time position.

“Who runs the schools?”

Good question. If it’s some evil cabal of liberals, atheists, and ACORN operatives, I don’t understand why school boards behave the way they do when some local Elmer Gantry gets his flock whipped into a frenzy because “Origin of Species” is in the library.

“Who do the teachers unions support politically?”

Generally, the DFL. Why is that? Could it be because education professionals–you know, those good-for-nothings who devote their careers to educating children–have decided that the Republicans really don’t give a rat’s rear about education?

“Who insists that there’s never enough money for the schools even at $14k per kid?”

I couldn’t tell you. I don’t know where they spend $14K per kid (Minneapolis–the conservative bete noire for education spending–spends just under $8K per pupil).

“The people who destroyed our cities are the same people who have destroyed the public schools.”

Yes, it was the Republicans, with their not-so benign neglect of the core cities and toadying to suburbia. At last, we agree on something!

Gee Tim, how do kids ever graduate from school believing in God? When is the last time you walked into a school? In my community, kids have formed an early morning prayer group that meets 1 morning a week at a local restaurant. Then they head off to public school. Teachers from public school teach Sunday school at their churches. Students are led in the pledge of allegiance – with the words under God. Kids study for confirmation during study hall time in school. there is not one thing anit-Christian in my school or any other school I have been in or know of through friends across the country.
They teach – but they don’t touch religion because it is the PARENTS’ choice and responsibility. There is no reason for you to be so afraid of public schools.

“Our anti-Christian educational system is the source of our failure of capitalism, because capitalism is dependent on a Christian culture to hold business leaders accountable to honest business transactions.”

I guess when the public schools are gone we can disband the local police, state patrol, FBI, the justice system, and prisons will be empty.

Sorry Tim. The school is not responsible for how well you or I or anyone else leads their life as a Christian. Just ask the Christians at K Street. It’s a personal thing – we’re not perfect. That’s why we need God in our personal lives and CAN by choosing to attend church and guide our children. It’s not a job for teachers.

@fromo
“Banning people from teaching kids in a calm, quiet, and respectful setting is not a violation of the 1st amendment, no matter how hard you spin it.”
This statement is true on it’s face. But since you deleted the key factor of teaching religion, it is also a lie of omission. Your response is irrelevent because it does not address the terms of the original statement “no matter how hard you spin it.”

State funding for teaching religion is very much an establishment of religion. Closing your “case” to it does not make it any less true.

“It is however an attack on the Government-Union-Liberal monopoly of brain-washing our kids.”
As opposed to a Christian extremist monopoly of brain-washing our kids?

The State has a vested interest in educating the citizens because educated citizens are more productive and prosperous. This includes teaching things that have nothing to do with religion, and things that are a real part of the physical world but not consistent with some religious beliefs. There is no government monopoly here. There are, as the article mentioned, parochial schools – which are in decline. There is also the option of home schooling, which has been on the rise and half my family have taken advantage of. They did this for religious reasons, and I have seen the limits it has placed on their kids’ futures.

Religion should be taught in the respective houses of worship, by responsible people of faith. It should not be taught by just anyone. Make no mistake here, the Constitution explicitly states: “no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.” This includes Presidents legislators, judges, … and teachers.

“And if the kids choose to pray in the middle of the day what in God’s name is it any business of yours?”
Kids can pray five times a day, for all I care – just as long as they don’t do it on the public dime or interfere with the rights of others.

“As long as they cover the general curriculum of the state and the kids are passing the tests, why do you care what the name on the building says or if they pray or not?”
Religious indoctrination is the issue. The government cannot do it without destroying freedom of religion. It is not for the government to favor or support one religion over another, or to judge one superior to another. It is the role of government to protect the religious rights of all by remaining neutral and mediating disputes.

Tim illustrates the problems with seeing things only in terms of religion. He has to twist everything into a religious doctrine before he can apply his my-religion-is-better-than-your-religion arguments that rejects the idea of religious freedom for those who do not share his belief system.

Christian zealots like Kline are incensed that public schools are no longer allowed to perform religious indoctrination for them, and will say and do anything to tear down the wall of separation that is the only meaningful defender of true religious freedom. The Texas board of Education has gone so far as to require the rewriting of history to codify their religious agenda of indoctrination.

Tim says: “Humanism is not a neutral religion, it is an anti-Christ religion. And it is the religion that is taught in our schools today. You can find it in everything from the history books, to the science books to the ethics classes.”

Tim, if Humanism is a religion then bald is a hair color. Humanism is a philosophy and a life stance. Humanism does NOT have a “god”. Nor does it “worship” anything. “Sin” is just a religious concept, that keeps the pastors and priests employed. There is no god to solve our problems, we human beings need to do it. Humanism is the label for the philosophy. As the ads said, we can be good without god.

So again here’s the question, which version of Christianity should the schools emphasize? There is NO such thing as “generic Christianity”. Should they teach that the Pope is the head of the religion or that only the Bible alone should be the way to determine what is proper for the the religion? Should we teach that the Amish way of not using certain types of modern technology is the proper way? Should we teach that it’s not proper for women to not be considered pastors or priests, like say Brad Brandon and Bradlee Dean believe?

Religious freedom is best done when we keep the schools free from sectarian bias and proselytizing.

Oh and sorry Evolution is science, not propaganda for humanism. It’s too bad for you that reality has a liberal bias.

@Zera Lee,

“Religion should be taught in the respective houses of worship, by responsible people of faith. It should not be taught by just anyone.”

So youa re now the arbiter of what a house of worship is and who is responsible and who is just not anyone.. What arrogance.

It also sounds like you would support some kind of government license for teaching religion, with all kinds of standards and tests and certifications. “for the Children” of course. Now that certainly would violate the 1st Amendment.

When a person has nothing left to say other than to make up what the other side must really mean and attack that, they have actually lost the argument. Sounds like Fox “news” – take a simple statement, blow it up into something it’s not, and whine about it.

@ZL.

“Kids can pray five times a day, for all I care – just as long as they don’t do it on the public dime or interfere with the rights of others.”

Is praying in a public school infringing on the rights of others?

Is it on the “public dime “, or on the personal time of the students, who are not being paid by the government or the public to attend school (except in some liberal cities where all else has failed and they are now bribing parents to actually care about their child’s education) ?

How could one’s praying ever trample on anothers’ rights?

Dennis wrote:

“Eric, that’s the type of social engineering that’s causing the huge growth in home schooling and charter schools as parents are pulling their kids out of the government schools in droves.”

The schools go to great lengths to appease both conservatives and liberals. However, there are some areas of study where it would be academically and scientifically dishonest as well as a disservice to students to teach what many religious conservatives believe: for instance, that evolution is a myth, that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, and that we have scientific reason to suppose that a god or gods created life and caused speciation.

There’s no evidence for these claims, but this doesn’t stop many religious conservatives from believing them. It’s the responsibility of the schools however to teach the best of what’s known according to science. Inevitably this will contradict some religious belief. I assume this is a significant part of the “social engineering” you refer to, Dennis.

So rephrasing your statement in light of the above considerations we’d have: “Christian fundamentalist parents are pulling their kids out of schools to preclude them being exposed to scientific understanding that contradicts the religious programming they receive in their insular religious communities.”

The observation that must be made that for all those who rail against “social engineering” in the public schools, it’s no small irony that they most often wish to replace what they perceive as “social engineering” with a kind of indoctrination that’s far narrower and contains far more selective ideological content than anything found in the schools. And on top of that, they wish to save their children from the odious liberal burden of thinking critically about any of it.

That some parents are doing this raises a number of questions about the responsibility of the state to protect children from irrationalist sectarian indoctrination, and about the morality of such indoctrination. Also, does or should religious freedom encompass the right of parents to force feed their children any balderdash they want to, as long as it’s labeled “religion”? What about Christian Identity movement parents who believe that whites are superior to blacks? What about Christian Dominionist parents, many of whom believe that gays and lesbians are either agents of the devil or are possessed by demons, and who pose a grave threat to the country? What happens when faith, as it too often does, becomes a force that engenders bias and hatred of others? Is it moral to indoctrinate children into any sectarian faith system?

We should work for the day when all children have the chance to be exposed to and learn about actual science. Let’s evolve our culture to the point where it will be widely seen as immoral when ignorant and misguided parents, in thrall to irrationalist cults and their dogmas, seek to corrupt the minds of children with nonsense.

fromo, no one stops kids from praying in public schools, unless it is interfering with the regular work of the school.* What is not allowed is sponsorship of prayer by the public school.

*Before you copy and paste some story from WingnutNet Daily about a principal who put a kid in detention for saying grace in the cafeteria, I will point out that what the principal did is unlawful. It happens, I’m sure, and that’s why we have courts that can vindicate the rights of a kid commending his soul to God before trying the Mystery Meat.

“So you are now the arbiter of what a house of worship is and who is responsible and who is just not anyone.. What arrogance. It also sounds like you would support some kind of government license for teaching religion, with all kinds of standards and tests and certifications.”
Only within the realm of prejudice-induced paranoia. These accusations are just you making something up to accuse me of. It is those who advocate injecting their religion into government who require, even demand, government interference in religion.

I advocate the separation of church and state as the only way to protect freedom of religion for all. This includes the government having no authority to pick and choose which religions to recognize. Catholics, Wiccans, Protestants, Jews, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Mormons, Amish, Native Americans, and others, all have equal standing in a country of true religious freedom.

“Is praying in a public school infringing on the rights of others?”
If it interferes with, disrupts, or shortens a class, or otherwise limits or interferes with the learning of other students, yes. Public schools are built, maintained, and operated with public money. They school staff are public employees. Lunch and free study periods aside, what happens on school property during school hours happens at public expense.