Minnesota Family Council to hold marriage amendment course for legislators

Stay classy, heteros!

Personally I find the idea of amending the constitution to discriminate against anyone for any reason to be repulsive. It would be interesting to see who actually attends and find out why they think they have time to waste on this when there are real issues like the budget, healthcare, transportation, environment etc to deal with.

I am betting that Mr. Sprigg is a closet case. Recent history has shown that those who protest loudest usually end up being caught fellating a dude in a public restroom.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is becoming the champion hate group.

They are labeling anyone who believes in the obvious idea that humans were created male and female to form a family unit – as haters. They are clearly the haters, hating their own design and its designer.

Their hate is so strong that it has caused them to be double-minded, irrational in their promotion of unnatural sexuality that does not bring freedom but social meltdown and the abandonment of rational discussion as they work endlessly to silence debate through any means, even if the freedom of speech and worship and religion are completely criminalized and all defenders are jailed.

Many of their supporters have no idea what they are actually promoting and the devastating consequences that will result.

The defenders of our nation need to see the ‘The Southern Poverty Law Center’ for what they are, a national security threat to our nation. They are an enemy combatant and should be labeled so by our military. They should be sued for the misguided smear campaign to suggest that descending ideas are similar to human rights violations that other hate groups have committed.

Defending natural marriage is the best defense for ALL people to live as free as possible. Same-sex marriage will not give more freedom to anyone, it will only take freedoms way. Even homosexuals will never have the freedom they have today if same-sex marriage were to become legal. Support for same-sex marriage is a step backwards in the evolution of human rights. It will cause everyone to lose rights, as a very few are given additional rights above everyone else. It will create a super class of people that have more rights than anyone else and that my friend is the creation of a theocracy, which is a step on the path to complete tyranny.

If you love your country, target the ‘The Southern Poverty Law Center’ for its atrocities that it is committing against our nation to deteriorate our human rights.

“They are labeling anyone who believes in the obvious idea that humans were created male and female to form a family unit – as haters.”

Actually, the SPLC says its “hate group” designation is based on these groups’ “propagation of known falsehoods — claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities — and repeated, groundless name-calling. Viewing homosexuality as unbiblical does not qualify organizations for listing as hate groups.”

Tim

You made this statement in your post.

“The defenders of our nation need to see the ‘The Southern Poverty Law Center’ for what they are, a national security threat to our nation. They are an enemy combatant and should be labeled so by our military.”

Please defend this statement and give your references. Show us exact acts the the SPLC has done that would warrant being labeled as a security threat to our nation.

Tim,
The SPLC is labeling the Family Research Council as a hate group because they consistantly LIE about gays. And they LIE even after it;s pointed out that they LIE.

Sprigg has been quoted that he’s like to see gays expelled from the country. Tony “the CCC is my friend” Perkins, the head of the FRC was raked over the coals his recent lie filled article in the Washington Post.

So if the FRC wants to be considered ethical and worth listening to, they need to STOP LYING.

It’s simple.

This better not be on taxpayer dime hobnobbing with dicredited quaks and hate-groups and mongers. Every word spoken and printed by these clowns is discredited and refuted. Minnesota lawmakers who show up for this are just ptting a target on their backs for removal. Very shameful for Minnesota.

Tim, what on earth have you been drinking? What color is the sky in your world? I have the names of several good psychologists for you the next time you have a lucid moment. Get some help big boy, you are delusional!

Tim, &al:

How are freedoms lost by making marriage freely available? Your right to live in a society devoid of people who offend your faith?

@Charles –

Your suggestion to remove people who do not agree with your faith in same-sex marriage is a campaign to remove Christians from our nation. Hitler had the same idea. It cannot be done without a tyranny rule and that is what hate groups like the SPLC are for.

You answered your own question.

Tim

What are you talking about??? He is sarcastically asking what your end goal is. My gosh, you need to loosen the tin foil on your head. It is starting to restrict the blood flow to your brain.

The simple question is….WHAT FREEDOMS ARE LOST WHEN MARRIAGE IS AVAILABLE TO ALL?

Please include references to any statements you claim to be factual.

@Paul –

Are you kidding me?

The statement gave from the SPLC says just what I said.

“They are labeling anyone who believes in the obvious idea that humans were created male and female to form a family unit – as haters.”

I find it difficult to understand how such intelligent guys like you and Andy can be tricking into thinking that the SPLC are your friends.

Their intentions for your life are not what you think they are. The SPLC is a national suicide organization.

“National suicide organization”? Uh, thanks for your concern.

No Tim,

the difference is that no one is stropping you from breeding as long as your hearts content, but that does not give you any right to keep “inalienable rights” from other American born citizens, which is what makes YOU a HATER and groups like you HATE GROUPS. We’ll just chalk up your last vilification as ANOTHER KNOWN FALSEHOOD. You christianist-extremists really makes me sick.

This is bizzarre. Nobody, not even the SPLC, has suggested exporting heterosexuals or Christians (of any denomination). I have no problem living in a country that has different kinds of people in it — we already do. All I ask is that you have the same charity.

Where/how did I suggest removing anybody?

@Wendy –

If you are sincerely honest with your convictions and don’t see the value in protecting everyone’s rights, then your goal cannot be anything short of criminalizing all who hold difference ideas – namely Christians.

You might as well say that you hate Christians (at least the ones that are true to the label) and will persecute them until they are complete eliminated from society. That is the goal of the SPLC.

Tim:

How, please tell me, does permitting gays to marry as their hearts dictate infringe on your rights?

Oh blow me Tim, I am a Christian despite what you Talibangicles say. I don’t believe in your crystal ball or your glass house. You are trying to scare people and you are lying and vilifying people who do not harm you in any fashion, except your hate speech. On the contrary, YOU do not want a segment of society to exist and are actively trying to withhold Constitutional rights to other Americans. I find that act and you to be repugnant.

This whole “If we lose marriage then we lose everything” crap. I’m on to you buddy. You’re a fake and a liar, just like your fundamentalist extremist friends, the phony victimization you all wear, and your dehumanizing groups. The good part is that Christians all over the world are seeing the light about you hateful extremist folks. That Nazi Pope who think ‘pedophelia is natural’ is a FAR greater threat to civilization and mankind than the people you dehumanize and vilify.

Tim – it’s not Christians we don’t like – it’s people like you, people filled with hate and anger, who should more accurately be called Leviticans.

I know Christians Tim and trust me, no matter how much you try and hide behind your perverted version of the Life of Jesus, you are no Christian.

Minnesota H8 makes national news, again. http://www.rightwingwatch.org/taxonomy/term/477/all

OK Folks, let me try this again, only more bluntly. In my opinion, Tim is clinically paranoid, and probably delusional. Engaging in a rational “conversation” with him is futile! Anyone on this side of rational can’t follow his “logic.” Just an opinion. I am probably wrong.

Warren Throckmorton, a respected professor and past president of the American Mental Health Counselors Association, put it like this the day after my debate with Perkins: “For the most part, the reaction of defenders of the newly labeled hate groups is to avoid addressing the issues the SPLC raised, instead preferring to attack the credibility of the SPLC. Reviewing the charges leveled against the Christian groups, I think their responses are mostly unfortunate and unhelpful. The SPLC has identified some issues which are legitimate and have damaged the credibility of the groups on the list. Going forward, I hope Christians don’t rally around these groups but rather call them to accountability.” After reviewing the SPLC’s list of “10 Myths” about gays and lesbians, he wrote that “much of what is said by Christians about homosexuality is provably false and rooted in ignorance and fear.”

Another Christian website, Canyonwalker Connections, wrote: “Lies are evil. Lies breed fear. … If we repeat the myth enough, maybe it will gain muddy traction and stick. This is what FRC and other Hate Groups do so well. They demonize the gay community. … If the church cannot police our own, perhaps God is using secular organizations to slap His children upside the head? Would not be the first time. I will stand with, beside and in front of my GLBT fellow humans to ensure that they gain equality with me. Family Research Council, you should be more concerned about where you are on God’s list of naughty or nice, sheep or goats. And Southern Poverty Law Center, I applaud you, thank you, really … thank you.”

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/more-religious-right-seminars-elected-leaders

Never mind Tim. He is here to disrupt the conversation and change the focus off the issues. The issue is that a hate seminar for hate legislation is being held in Minnesota on tax-payer (even gay one’s) dime, and they will be using discredited junk science to further dehumanize a segment of the population, mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers, aunts and uncles and entire family units, their children and friends BY RECOGNIZED HATE GROUPS. This should be of massive concern to a vast majority of Minnesotans.

Tim is a gnat.

tim,

“You might as well say that you hate Christians (at least the ones that are true to the label) and will persecute them until they are complete eliminated from society. That is the goal of the SPLC.”

There is NOT one definition that fits the word Christian. There is NOT a standardized set of beliefs for Christianity. There is NOT even a standard Bible for all of Christianity.

What we oppose are those “Christians” who have declared their beliefs as “true” and all others as wrong whether it’s about gays or evolution, it’s those who refuse to accept the reality that their beliefs are totally out of sync with facts.

Tim

So, you got the guts to answer my inquiry?

@John – I have answered your question about 10 times on this blog. Read a few previous related articles.

@Wendy -

How can you be a Christian and deny the Chirstian doctrine that clearly defines sexual immorality as a sin againsts God? It is impossible. That is why scripture tells us not to live this lie.

“If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.” – 1 John 1:10

You cannot be a Christian and continue sinning against God, it is impossible. You cannot love God and hate his commands. His Word has no place in your heart.

Tim

Then it should be easy for you to defend your statement. Give me references. You should have plenty of them by now. Or are you afraid of your own lies? Please enlighten an interested mind.

@Scott –

The scripture details in many places how to know who is a Christian and who is not.

For example, Jesus says “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” – John 10:27 Jesus is saying that his people hear his voice and he knows them and they obey his commands.

The increasing failure of Christian churches to refuse to compromise the clear teachings of Word of God is not proof that Christianity is not based on a real God or that it has failed. But rather proof that scripture is indeed true – because scripture testifies that this would happen – many would fall away and turn from the faith. Expect this to continue. Don’t put your faith in the increase of false teachers that scripture has long predicted would happen.

A Christians is someone that believes that Jesus in the Son of God.

“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;” – 1 John 4:2 “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God “- 1 John 5:1 “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. “ – Romans 8:14 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.” – John 3:36

If one truly believes Jesus is the Son of God, they will be transformed, born again and become a new person – and they will never be the same because the Spirit of God will change them. This is a supernatural event that explains how people can one day be involved in a sinful lifestyle that seems like they will never change and suddenly they are completely free from it in an instance – so much so that you don’t even recognize them. The power of this event can only be understood by those that have experienced it.

Then to draw a line in the sand, Jesus says there is no middle ground. “..Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. ” – Matthew 12:30. There is no such thing as a neutral position with regard to your worldview. You are either for or against the kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps the best way to tell who is a Christians is under persecution. The ‘real’ Christians love Jesus more than their own life and refuse to compromise with anyone about their convictions to follow Christ’s commands. Nothing can move them.

“Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you” – 1 Corinthians 15:58

That’s why the only way to truly remove Christians from society is to kill them, as many nations have tried throughout history and as the SPLC is building the foundation for today.

See what I mean….

Tim makes me think of a favorite saying, ” When you find a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
As a hetero-Christian who thinks LGBT’s are part of of God’s great creation, I need to ask Tim if he follows the rest of the Bible so literally—
Don’t let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don’t have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don’t wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don’t cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) Have you ever done that?

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).

…or does he just pick and choose laws that apply only to things he doesn’t participate in?
It’s interesting how he has mangled his hate for homosexuals with his idea that Christians are being persecuted. Persecuted? Name a time in recent history when Christians in the U.S. were denied the right to worship in their churches? Name a time when a Christian teen was beat up because he worshiped Jesus?
Time to go write a check to donate funds to the Southern Poverty Law Center. I doubt that the SPLC claims they’re a Christian organization, but I tend to think they’re folks who are doing exactly what Jesus did: sticking up for those less fortunate and for those who don’t have a voice.

True Christians dont puke their faith over everyone, and YOU are no more a Christain that your Sharia Law weilding equivalents.

http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/2010/11/ten-myths-about-the-glbt-community-a-christian-perspective/

Gay couples who desire to make their relationships legal via mariage or Civil Unions, in no way threatens marriage between a man and a woman.

Besides, heterosexual mariage has a poor rate of success with the Divorce rate 50% of all marriages end in Divorce with 2 years. DIVORCE is the major threat to heterosexual marraige.

BAN DIVORCE! Make Divorce punishible in jail for couples one year for each 3 years married. Add 6 months additonal to the jail sentence for each child the marraige produced. Then add in costs for the Divorce, Child support, and other expenses paid for by the couple. Perhaps people will think twice about getting married and having children.

Just my 2 cents worth if the FRC is so obssessed against Gay marriage.

Tim:

Since you are doing so much to educate people regarding “God’s Law.” When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, you tell them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination (even though the literal translation is about prostitution and temple worship/ idoltry) end of debate, right? I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how and if you follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear contacts. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? How about you Tim?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football or give my dog pigs ears if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? – Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you babble about these things extensively, so I am confident you can answer these. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and
unchanging. 8 /

“That’s why the only way to truly remove Christians from society is to kill them, as many nations have tried throughout history and as the SPLC is building the foundation for today.”

No Tim, YOU and your fellow fundamentalist -extremists are setting that foundation. People of many religions (and without) are sick to death of fundamentalist extremism, and all the hate, death and destruction that comes with it.

Christianity will CRUSH itself by the weight of there own bigotry.. It’s a slow process but it WILL happen.. And I cant wait…The only “Homosexual Agenda” is equal rights.. The same rights that us ‘straight folk’ have.. I figure that Christians are either threatened or incredibly Turned On by homosexuals..

Remember Ted Haggard??

“Hitler had the same idea. ”

Yeah, well so did Bill Clinton and Barck Obama.

“I figure that Christians are either threatened or incredibly Turned On by homosexuals..”

Actually, the ones I know are disgusted by the very thought of what defines a homosexual. Nevertheless, homosexuals have the same legal rights as heterosexuals do, including the right to marry a member of the opposite sex who is not underage nor an immediate family member.

> Nevertheless, homosexuals have the same legal rights as heterosexuals do, including the right to marry a member of the opposite sex who is not underage nor an immediate family member.

Try arguing this with those divorced couples whose spouse(s) finally admit to being gay or lesbian, having “been forced” to marry as a consequence of unenlightened societal pressures rather than out of genuine love, honesty and affection for the other. This is but another reason to allow equal and unfettered access to civil marriage for those who are LGBT. Integrity. Self-respect and respect for others. Same thing that will happen for those LGBT servicepeople when DADT is finally at last repealed.

Gay people are not a threat to Marriage – the REAL threat to Marriage is Divorce!

Support the 2012 Marriage Protection Act in California so that change can sweep this great country and all states – even Minnesota – can proclaim ourselves to TRULY supporting Marriage and protecting Marriage from the real threat!

http://rescuemarriage.org/

@Wendy –

Excellent question, the answer is found by reading the rest of the book.

The Leviticus laws and priestly rituals are about God’s covenant with Israel set out in Genesis and Exodus.

This was the old covenant is which sins were forgiven by the blood of animals. The death and resurrection of Jesus established a new covenant, a much better covenant is which Jesus’ blood was shed once and for all. The New Testament confirms that these rituals no longer apply. But the New Testament in several places does confirm that sexual immorality is to be avoided and is offensive to God.

Many of these rituals were in preparation for the priests to appear before God is the Temple. But at the time of Jesus’ death, Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38 speak of the veil separating the holy of holies from the outer courtyard in the Temple. The veil was torn down the center by God, symbolizing that God is now directly accessible and no longer dwelling in the Temple and therefore these rituals are no longer needed.

Jesus never mentions homosexuality, and in stead places the rules that go against your idea, the rule that people are not to judge in that factor, that only he is to Judge. By pressing your feelings into law, you are in judgement, therefore are the sinner.

@Marcus –

You said: “Christianity will CRUSH itself by the weight of there own bigotry”

At times it may appear that this could happen because the human heart is so deceitful and wicked (Jeremiah 17:9), but scripture tells us that “the gates of hell will not prevail ..” – Matthew 16:18

You see, Jesus Christ is the God of the universe and all authority of heaven and earth has been given to him (Matthew 28:18). The only way that Christianity could fail is if Jesus was dethroned from His Kingdom.

Do you think the religion of humanism, which believes in the idea that we are our own gods and can live without Him, has the authority to dethrone Jesus? Not a chance. If the Devil couldn’t do it, there is no way that humans are going to.

Daniel 7:14 tells us that Jesus’ Kingdom will last forever. “He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. “

This is your chance to join the only true Kingdom with the King that will never be dethroned, while you still have the opportunity to believe in Jesus the Son of God.

“Sessions entitled “Effective marriage protection amendment strategies” and “What’s the harm in same-sex marriage?” are aimed at getting the amendment passed…”

There is absolutely NO harm in same-sex marriage. I married my partner in California two years ago. Who exactly was harmed by this? Did anyone in Minnesota happen to hear about it, then get a divorce? Yeah, I didn’t think so. This has NOTHING to do with marriage, and EVERYTHING to do with homophobia and hatred towards gay people.

@David –

The commitment you and your partner have made for each other does not harm anyone. But a legal marriage does, because it legalizes a moral idea, which makes it possible to prosecute any person, business, government or organization that does not share this moral and very religious idea.

Therefore, churches, businesses, persons and government branches, hospitals and universities will be suited, fined and shut down if they have a different religious belief. This is clearly much more than about your commitment to your partner and will clearly cause great damage to the entire nation – as Christians will be legally persecuted and driven underground, like has already happen in many other nations.

The freedom of religion and the freedom of speech will be forever lost and controlled by legal precedence. Same-sex marriage is the establishment of a theocracy in which the state will be in direct violation of the constitution in the establishment of religion.

Here is a list of Christians that have been persecuted in Canada.
http://www.wayoflife.org/files/706fe196bc5dd6068bb1a96eefc8b4be-109.html

The goal of Hate groups like the SPLC is to legalize the persecution of Christians, even if they have to destroy the freedoms our nation needs to remain prosperous along the way.

@Tim

The legal joining of David and his partner has nothing to do with moral anything. Its a legal binding. NOT A MORAL ONE.

Marriage is not legal in a church, the priest only does a ceremony. It is not legal binding till they sign the same civil document you have to sign if you do it at city hall.

NO church is going to be MADE to do a ceremony for someone that doesn’t fit within its religion. A Jewish ceremony isn’t done in a church and visa versa.

you can take your religious views and live with it.

Religious view had the same arguement for slavery. LAW changed slavery, not the CHURCH!

“Hitler had the same idea. ”

How dare you invoke Hitler in a thread about gay rights? He persecuted, arrested, tortured, and imprisoned gay men by the tens of thousands. And when the Allies liberated the prison camps, they freed everyone EXCEPT the “perverts”. Imagine surviving the hell of Nazi Germany only to be “liberated” and put in a West German or East German jail for the rest of your life.

I especially love Peter Sprigg’s topic: Bullying Bills – The Homosexual Agenda in Your Child’s Public School.

This sounds like a perfect match for Anoka Hennepin Public Schools!

@Wendy –

You said: “True Christians dont puke their faith over everyone”

Oh contraire, Christians are called to be ambassadors for Christ, in which God makes his appeal through us. (2 Cor 5:20)

We are called to be light to the world, shinning wherever we go and always having an answer for the hope that is it us. We are called to be salt to the world, so that the world knows that we are different.

We are NOT to conform to the world, but to remain steadfast in upholding God’s commands – unmovable.

Few Christians take these things seriously, which is why scripture says the harvest is great but there are few workers. Few realize that his reward is greater than anything on earth, including social standing or personal fulfillment or human desires. The reward of the Lord for putting your life in his hands, by fearing the Lord more than men, is far greater than gaining the whole world. We will inherent the universe and shine like the stars.

But being a Christian is not an easy road. Christianity is not for the weak minded or the faint of heart or for the lovers of self– but for the courageous and those that are driven by fascination and a hunger to know God. The cost is high, as detailed in John McCarthy’s book,

“Hard to Believe: The High Cost and Infinite Value of Following Jesus”
http://www.amazon.com/Hard-Believe-Infinite-Value-Following/dp/0785263454

BTW. Way to go Minnesota Independent for doing a bang up job moderating your comments. You’re a stand up paper. Way to let “Tim” tell people to “target” another organization just because he doesn’t agree with them. Way to let “Tim” tell people horrible falsehoods that can’t be proven except by his “belief” in them.

Also @Tim: I thought we had freedom of religion in this country. That includes the right to be an atheist. I don’t hear you telling people that Muslims, Hindus, Jews and the like don’t have rights.

@BobN

Apparently your information about the Nazi Party is incomplete.
Try reading, “The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party”

Here is the link the Internet version, http://www.thepinkswastika.com/
Here are a few opening paragraph;

“It has been several years since we published the fourth edition of this book. In that time we have accumulated a substantial amount of new documentation supporting our thesis that the Nazi Party was conceived, organized and controlled throughout its short history by masculine-oriented male homosexuals who hid their sexual proclivities from the public, in part by publicly persecuting one group of their political enemies: out-of-the-closet effeminate-oriented homosexuals aligned with the German Communist Party. “

“If The Pink Swastika were the “pack of lies” the homosexual movement claims it is, the book would not have influenced their “Gay Holocaust” strategy in the smallest degree. It would have been easy to discredit and disregard. Instead, how did the “gay” leaders respond to its challenge? They stopped talking about the Nazis almost entirely and changed their symbol from the pink triangle to the rainbow flag.

We prevailed in our campaign. And our research was implicitly vindicated.”

The stated goal of Hitler was to ride the world of Jews and Christians.

I went to the pink swastika website. I glanced through the names on the Acknowledgement page at http://www.thepinkswastika.com/6901/6943.html, and knew then that this project would not pass academic rigor and thus is not credible.

Stop engaging Tim. He only uses this site to proselytize and has no interest in a logical debate.

Jaha even as my last comment – like most others – is for the benefit of other readers rather than in direct response to the trolls.

Tim, Hitler was a devote Catholic, more than likely Opus Dei. Just like the “pedophilia is natural” Pope.

This Harvest Evangelism of the International Transformation Network and the New Apostolic Reformation is all Dominionist drivel. You make all of the rest of Christianity look bad. It is all radical extremist-fundamentalism and should be dealt with with the same vigor as we pursue Al Qaeda. Same fundamentalism, different religious sect.

One of the things I see repeated in the comments in this thread is the issue of religious freedom. Yes, religious freedom is one of the foundational principles of our government and way of life, however, religious freedom does not encompass the freedom or the right to discriminate against other people in our legal system. That is why slavery and segregation was ended despite arguments from religious leaders including bishops. That’s why bans on inter-racial marriage were prohibited nationwide despite arguments from religious leaders. It is absoslutely counter to the concept of religious freedom to create laws that force people to live according to any religious edict. Read some writings by James Madison, the father of the constitution, or the constitution itself where it states that there shall be no religious test required to hold government office. A theocracy is a government whose laws are dictated by a religion, as in the middle east where Sharia law is the law of the land. To say that a legal system devoid of laws based on religion is a theocracy is directly opposite of the truth. The foundings fathers set out to form a free society and wanted to escape the religious oppression they were experiencing from the church of England, and one of our foundational ideals is that each person must be free to live according to his or her own conscious rather than the religious ideals of established churches and organizations. Your religious freedom ends where my personal freedom begins, and so long as I harm no one else I am free to live according to my own conscious. My marrying a woman harms no one, and it is not the right of any religious body to say that I cant marry her in our legal system based on religious texts.

Tim is aligned with the worst of the worst hate group ideologues and Nazi revisionists Scott “Kill The Gays Bill in Uganda” Lively and The Family who’s REAL intent is eradicating gay people entirely through fraudulent and coercive “change” therapy or death.

Then read this report from The US Holocaust Memorial Museum which describes the Nazi approach to homosexuality.

On June 28, 1935, the Ministry of Justice revised Paragraph 175. The revisions provided a legal basis for extending Nazi persecution of homosexuals. Ministry officials expanded the category of “criminally indecent activities between men” to include any act that could be construed as homosexual. The courts later decided that even intent or thought sufficed.

On October 26, 1936, Himmler formed within the Security Police the Reich Central Office for Combating Abortion and Homosexuality. Josef Meisinger, executed in 1947 for his brutality in occupied Poland, led the new office. The police had powers to hold in protective custody or preventive arrest those deemed dangerous to Germany’s moral fiber, jailing indefinitely–without trial–anyone they chose. In addition, homosexual prisoners just released from jail were immediately re-arrested and sent to concentration camps if the police thought it likely that they would continue to engage in homosexual acts.

From 1937 to 1939, the peak years of the Nazi persecution of homosexuals, the police increasingly raided homosexual meeting places, seized address books, and created networks of informers and undercover agents to identify and arrest suspected homosexuals. On April 4, 1938, the Gestapo issued a directive indicating that men convicted of homosexuality could be incarcerated in concentration camps.

I think any parallels between Nazi Germany then and homosexuality now are absurd, including the similaries in rhetoric I point out here. However, those who want to make sinister linkages between Nazi Germany and gay people must be prepared to explain why more obvious similarities, such as noted here, are not indicative of equally nefarious intents.

http://wthrockmorton.com/category/scott-lively/

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2005/spring/holy-war/making-myths

Trying to stir up hatred against gay people by identifying them with Nazis is simply wicked nonsense.

There is no sound evidential basis for what the ‘Pink Swastika’ has to say. This filthy, deceitful book was written to make money, not to educate or enlighten in any way.

(Furthermore, everyone – including this Tim character – knows perfectly well that gay people were among the Nazi’s victims. For this there is ample evidence. Telling lies about gay people, or anyone else, has nothing to do with ‘following Christ’.)

Amen!

@Richard –

My point is that the communists, the Nazi’s, and hate groups like the SPLC all have the same idea – rid the world of Christians and life will be better.

Peter Hutchinson has an excellent new book explaining where this idea originates from and why it is completely foolish.

The Rage Against God:
http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Against-God-Atheism-Faith/dp/0310320313

@Wendy –

That is exactly my point. Thank you for being honest with yourself and the rest of us.

Based on your comment that Christians “should be dealt with the same vigor as we pursue Al Qaeda”.

You agree with Hitler, treating Christians like terrorists gives you the opportunity to remove them from society in order to accomplish the radical homosexual agenda. This is the goal of the SPLC.

What you don’t seem to realize is that your war against Christianity is also attacking the pillars of our nation, liberty and freedom, which are built on Christianity.

If you succeed in pushing down these pillars in order to establish your utopia theocracy, the entire nation will crumple onto everyone below.

War against Christianity is war against our nation, because the ideas of our nation are unsustainable without Christianity.

This is the message that I’m preaching, the social and political war you wage against Christianity will destroy the nation that you live in.

All of us would live longer and more prosperous if you did not wage war against Christianity.

This is why the radical homosexual agenda must be confronted, not to make everyone Christians, but to save the nation.

Look Tim. You are a dope to align yourself with HATE GROUPS and FOUNDERS of HATE GROUPS and push idiotic diatribes of a madman Scott Lively, who is part at least responsible for genocidal legislation in Uganda.

My quote is not against “Christians” as I am one of, but fundamentalist extremist who I continue to contend are “CHRISTIANISTS”, NOT Christians.

“It is all radical extremist-fundamentalism and should be dealt with with the same vigor as we pursue Al Qaeda. Same fundamentalism, different religious sect.”

Nice try though…

And since you align with hate group founder and Holocaust revisionist Scott Lively and TWO HATE GROUPS ‘Watchmen On The Walls” and his Abiding Truth “ministry” who are pursueing a cleansing of GLBT’s in the world via forcible and fraudulent and coercive torture centers for head-shrinking, criminalization and death then I stand against you and your conveniently warped sense of Christianity. If your twisted ideology weren’t so repugnant, Christians all over Minnesota and the world wouldn’t be rising up to stop you, but we are. If the H8 shoe fits Tim, wear it. No amount of fundie-drivel will turn the SPLC into a H8 group LOL. Tony PerKKKins bought the Klans email list for a reason. What rank are you btw?

Again, Hitler was a devout Catholic, probably Opus Dei like the little Nazi Pope who thinks “pedophilia is natural” and did not cleanse Christians (even though your extreme ideology compels you to spin this as if he did).

As a responsible mainstream Christian, I stand against the Calvinist christianist -extremists who are warping Christianity into a narrow worldview that doesn’t include people who exists today, JUST LIKE HITLER (and you Tim, MFC, FRC, AFA, etc…)

We expect the Muslims to rein in and handle their extremists. Same thing should be expected within Christianity.

Tim

Hitler was nominally a Catholic, though I agree with you that he went after REAL Christians (Catholic and otherwise) who opposed him. He also organised the murder of thousands of gay people. This is beyond all reasonable doubt.

If you are serious about being a Christian, you will make your first priority the supporting of the oppressed, such as gay Ugandans who are being compared with rapists and child abusers, and threatened with the hangman’s noose.

Argue against what you call the ‘radical homosexual agenda’ if you wish. But make no mistake: if you ever side with would-be mass murderers like David Bahati (and if you tell filthy lies* about gay people in general, you will be doing just that), you will ‘spitting in the face of God’ (to quote Archbishop Desmond Tutu). Not a good idea.

* We all know what those lies are: some of them are feature in the Pink Swastika; others (e.g. gay people -many of whom are in loving, permanent partnerships, and have no desire whatever to undermine marriage, but rather wish to emulate it – are ‘morally equivalent’ to child abusers and rapists) are the ‘stock-in-trade’ of dirty little anti-gay propagandists the world over.

The scientific community and the psychiatric community have been learning more and more about human sexuality and science is telling us that homosexuality is as inborn and natural as heterosexuality. If god is in fact the creator of all humans, then why would he have created some of us to be something he hates? I know, I know, fundamentalists don’t believe in science, or even basic reason, but really, if it were not natural then natural creatures wouldn’t do it. All people like you really do Tim is drive people like me and many others away from Christianity. You are not the salt of the earth or a shining light, your message is one of hatred and oppression and condemnation and judgment against an entire people for loving who they love. Both of my parents were ordained ministers, I graduated from a catholic college, my wife’s family is catholic including several nuns, and instead of the message of love, acceptance, charity, and the fundamental goodness of people truly committed being a shining light and beacon of hope, you are perverting the whole message into of judgement. Well who are you? Get off of your judgmental high horse and practice the humility that Jesus actually preached. Practice the love without judgement of your fellow human being that he spoke of. Your beliefs are not pillars of any community. You who would place crosses on our backs and demand our heads the way that the pharasees did to John the Baptist and Jesus himself. Incedentally the Pharasees also wanted a “Kingdom of Priests” and for their version of gods law to be the law of the land. Like the pharasees you are a heretic, no friend of true biblical principles or your fellow human being.

@Wendy –

You can call me all the names you like, but your logic still results in your commitment to persecute all Christians that remain faithful to Christian doctrine.

How is it that Christians who believe in the Christian doctrine that has never changed are suddenly labeled terrorists? Cultural changes do not change the Word of God. Just because a culture wants to hide its sin by making it acceptable in mans sight does not change God’s opinion.

The idea of retaining the Christian label while rejecting the Christian doctrine in order to pretend you are justified and at peace with God is to believe a lie. (1 John 1:10) Why live this lie? Even the atheists who run this blog (Paul and Andy) are not willing to live this lie and have realized that they cannot claim to love God and hate his commands. Stealing the identity of Christianity will not change the way God thinks of you.

Scripture tells us that Paul and Andy are in better standing with God, than someone that has heard the truth and yet rejected it. (Mark 14:21). The cost of being a Christian is not worth faking it. “Jesus said many will come and say they believed in him, yet they did not know him because they did not follow his commands. – Matthew 7:22”

In fact it is when we lose our saltiness (our faith), that we become worthless. “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.” (Matthew 5:13) You are making a deal with the devil by compromising on immorality, and the wolves you are partnering with will eat you next. Either way, life is short, and it is worth it to remain faithful, because His reward is much greater.

As I have said before, the failure of churches to remain steadfast to the clear teachings of the Word of God will continue to increase. Not because the culture is improving or progressing, but because the evil that is within man is maturing, just as scripture said it would.

“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. (2 Timothy 4:3)”

This will continue as we approach the end of this age. Why put your faith in the increasing number of false teachers, which is already predicted to increase, rather than in God’s commands, in which we are commanded to remain – unmovable? (Corinthians 15:58)

If Christianity has never changed why are there so many versions of it? Why are there Catholics and Protestants and Quakers and Seventh Day Adventist et al? Every statement you make is false.

Tim

Much of the teaching of the prophets is concerned with those who are oppressed and unfairly treated. Many Christians, myself including, think that gay people have been unfairly treated for far too long, and correcting this injustice is a top priority.

Jesus never mentioned homosexuality; the story of Sodom & Gommorah is not about consensual same-sex relationships; if Levitical law were applied, then most of us would be doomed (one cannot just pick out little bits of it to suit one’s prejudices – either one ‘accepts it all’, or takes the view that we have ‘moved on’ – I would say into ‘New Covenant times’); Saint Paul’s (apparent) comments on homosexuality were all in relation to particular contexts, or (as in the case of the bit in I Corinthians) mistranslated. In case, Christians are called to worship the Word Made Flesh, and not a collection of writings put together around A.D. 400..

One last point: you refer to the ‘Word of God’ – and clearly you mean the Bible. But the Word of God is JESUS (and not the Bible). The Bible says so! I therefore take the view that you are therefore a heretic – though I must stress that I wish you no harm because of it.

God and I are just fine Tim, but I think He’s got a surprise or two for you.

Yes Richard, Tim is heretic, like his Calvinest “charismatic” extremists before him that our forefathers were so cautious about when they wrote our seperation of church and state. Leviticus Hypocriticus!

The SPLC says its “hate group” designation is based on these groups’ “propagation of known falsehoods — claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities — and repeated, groundless name-calling. Viewing homosexuality as unbiblical does not qualify organizations for listing as hate groups.

I’m sure God has a few ‘surprises’ for all of us! But will we be ready to respond to them as He wishes us to? That’s the key question.

Now, let’s consider REALITY for a moment. The ‘reality’ of life is that each of us is in God’s image, and has intrinsic dignity. We all gets things right, and we all get things wrong. Faith is a dynamic thing, and the Church is called to be constantly moving forward, facing up to past mistakes, such as promoting the persecution of gay people among many others.

There has always been disagreement among Christians on all sorts of things; new ideas develop, and new challenges have to be embraced, as learn more about God’s creation through philosophy and/or science. I doubt that anyone in this thread wishes to undermine the high ideals behind the institution of marriage; in fact, those who think that gay people should have a legal framework that enables them to embrace those ideals are, in a very real way, SUPPORTING marriage. This is perhaps why the head of Catholic Church in England and Wales, the Archbishop of Westminster, has recently made it clear that he does NOT oppose the provision of civil partnerships in the U.K.. The Archbishop of Canterbury has more than hinted that he SUPPORTS such provision.

@Jennifer –

There is plenty of scientific and psychiatric evidence to prove what the scripture says about sexual immorality, namely that it leads to a destructive and shortened life. The references are easy to find if you were truly interested in finding them. For example, “The fear of the LORD adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short.” – Proverbs 10:27. Scientific studies show a higher risk to life threatening deceases for those that have multiple sex partners. AIDS is a perfect example that is killing half the world and spreads with multiple partners.

You said, “Tim is driving people like me and many others away from Christianity”

I have no intention of telling you a lie, no matter how badly you want me too so that you can feel good in the short run, while you destroy yourself in the long run. The most loving thing that anyone could do is tell you the truth and that is that God calls us to a higher standard so that we can be reconciled with Him.

You also said in a previous comment: “Your religious freedom ends where my personal freedom begins, and so long as I harm no one else I am free to live according to my own conscious.”

Not according to the US Constitution. Religious freedom does not end where personal freedom begins. This is a myth that has been repeated, but it is a campaign to overturn the Constitutional protection of the freedom of religion in order to create special laws to enforce your religious beliefs – the creation of a theocracy. Same-sex marriage harms everyone. Here is a book to consider.

Correct, Not Politically Correct; How Same-Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone
http://www.amazon.com/Correct-Politically-Same-Sex-Marriage-Everyone/dp/1607081628

@Richard –

I also mean you no harm, but calling me a heretic for quoting scriptures that you do not agree with will not get you very far in God’s court.

I hope your legal counsel comes up with something better before your day in court. How will you account for your claim that Christ died for your sin, in order that you would be free from the wages of sin, yet continued in your ways?

Paul discusses this very idea, in Romans 6 when he begins with; “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?”

God calls us to holiness, “Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.” – Romans 12:1

Leviticus Hypocriticus!

Mathew 7:3

So, Tim. Who are you? Do you work for the Family Council? Seems like you’re advocating for an organization or church, yet you don’t have the courage to do such advocacy openly. Why not?

Tim

You do not know me, or what ‘my ways’ are. My statement about ‘heresy’ was theological one: the Word was made Flesh (see John 1) – it (He) is not a book.

The Archbishops I cited have not talked of ‘same-sex marriage’: one – Vincent Nichols – was saying that he believed there could be a proper place for civil partnerships in UK civil law; the other – Rowan Williams – is of the view that those who are ‘not the marrying kind’ are capable of loving partnerships.

‘Reality’ again: there are people who, for whatever reason, are gay. They are no less capable, though the quality of their human relationships, than anyone else of ‘holiness’ – i.e. reflecting the love of God.

‘Holiness’ will never be seen in those who perpetuate defamatory generalisations about others, especially when such defamation contributes to the kind of discrimination, hatred and violence that is currently threatening the lives and/or well-being of millions of gay Africans.

Tim – No less an American jurist than Oliver Wendell Holmes said “your freedom to wave your fist wildly about in space ends an inch before my nose,” and so it is with your religious freedoms – your religious freedoms end an inch before they begin to infringe on the freedoms – religious or civil – of others. And not only is permitting same-sex marriage an issue of personal liberty, but it is also a matter of religious liberty. Yours is not the only religion in America, and yours is not even the only perspective on same-sex marriage within your religion.

@Sheridan G. –

I am an ambassador for Jesus Christ (2 Cor 5:20), like billions of Christians around the world and the billions that have already died.

I openly and courageously advocate for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, which the world is at war with. (Psalm 2)

@Richard –

You are correct to say that Jesus (the Word of God) became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1)

But the bible is also the Word of God.

“Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:20)

Which is why…

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)

Send your legal counsel back to the drawing board.

I am not “threatening the lives and/or well-being of millions of gay Africans.” It is the Lord’s wrath that is upon them. He is who you are fighting a losing battle against. (Psalm 2)

Tim-

At what age did you know you were gay?

Tim -

That’s nice, sweetie.

To be really really blunt, the Constitution of the United States outranks your silly little book; especially where concerns the making of the laws which govern this pluralistic, secular nation.

I suppose next you’ll be proposing that we make a law for the burning of witches?

‎Tim speaks with forked-tongue. Most Puritans (neo-Calvinists, Kuyper Calvinists, Reformationists, Reconstructionists) wont admit their ideological aims, but when the light is turned on they scurry like bugs and speak in dog-whistle. This perverted and dishonest brand of Christianity morphs closer to cult than anything Godly, and you are warned.

“The vile person shall be no more called liberal…For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail…he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.” Isaiah 32:5-8 (KJV)

Minnesotans can inform themselves by following
http://theocracywatch.org/
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/11/6/123344/632
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

And Katie, that is precisely the theological divide and why they aim to take “dominion” over all things secular and the ’7 Mountains’ of power, including the government. They want to believe they are better Christians, or the “elect” to tell the rest of us how it is. This christofacsism believes they are fulfilling a prophecy. You hear the dog-whistles already about the bible holds greater authority than The Constitution and Bill of Rights. Gays be forewarned, you do not exist in this hellfire and brimstone world-view. Their God is not a nice God.

“In his book, and especially when speaking at the 1993 Biblical World View and Christian Education Conference, Morecraft discussed with relish the police power of the state. His belief in the persecution of nonbelievers and those who are insufficiently orthodox is crystal clear. Morecraft described democracy as “mob rule,” and stated that the purpose of “civil government” is to “terrorize evil doers. . . to be an avenger!” he shouted, “To bring down the wrath of God to bear on all those who practice evil!”

“And how do you terrorize an evil doer?” he asked. “You enforce Biblical law!” The purpose of government, he said, is “to protect the church of Jesus Christ,” and, “Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody’s pseudo-right to worship an idol!” “There ain’t no such thing” as religious pluralism, he declared. Further, “There has never been such a condition in the history of mankind. There is no such place now. There never will be.”

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/michele-bachmann-christian-reconstructionists

Tim

Anyone who makes defamatory and hateful generalisations about gay people is, in a sense, an accessory to possible genocide.

You know as well as I do (or at least you SHOULD know) that God and his true nature has been revealed to us in Christ. Christ never went around advocating the destruction of people – not even the Roman soldiers who crucified who.

You clearly do not know Christ. If you did, you would never suggest that God might approve of the whole-scale slaughter that people like David Bahati want.

Tim

I think you should appraise yourself of this well-research analysis of the kind of filthy lies perpetrated by evil nonsense like ‘The Pink Swastika’.

http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/01/12/massresistance-posts-anti-homosexuality-bill-then-misleads-readers-about-it/

Tim, again

I’d like to focus for a moment on this verse:-
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3 :16).

Nowhere does the Bible claim to be ‘the Word of God’ – a description it reserves for Jesus Himself – it only claims that scripture is ‘inspired’ … and NOT that scripture itself is the ‘Inspirer’. Consider King David ['a man after God's heart' - see Acts 13 : 22] … he did some pretty naughty things [e.g. arranging for someone to be killed in battle, so he could cover up the fact that he had his wife for a concubine - see 2 Samuel 11], despite all that ‘inspiration’.

Of course, what Saint Paul has to say in 2 Timothy is quite right. The story of David, Uriah and Bathsheba is MOST instructive: it reminds us however inspired a human writer of a portion of scripture might be (and the Psalms are full of the most ‘inspired’ stuff), he/she can still ‘get things horribly wrong’ – scripture itself makes that quite clear. This story is a salutary warning to all of us who call ourselves ‘Christian’. Saint Paul himself was always quick to point out that he was far from perfect, and that he did not ‘know it all’. Like all true Christians, he admitted that he was ‘on a journey’, and had not, at the time he wrote his letters, yet arrived at his final destination.

I hope and pray that you too, like Saint Paul, will journey to a better place: a place where you will utterly reject as emblems of evil ‘all forms of violence and unjust discrimination against homosexual persons’ (to quote the Pope). Branding whole groups of people as being deserving of violent malice is an unjustifiable things for any Christian to do.

I attach, for your further consideration, a statement on human rights issued by the Vatican soon after the Bahati Bill was published.
http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=a9849daa-dd60-4028-adc0-2dfa024cb3a9

@Tim,

I want to sincerely say thank you! You and others like you, are doing so much to turn public opinion in favor of equality. It is the tireless efforts of people like you and the Westboro Baptist Church, that are truly galvanizing public attitudes against Fundamentalist “Christians” and organized religion in general. You efforts, although costing the lives of innocent gay teenagers, will truly bring us toward a more enlightened future where all people straight, gay , Christian or Atheist will finally have equality and be able to live in peace.

Even here in this message board, your words, even though false, hypocritical and full of hatred, are helping everyone to open their eyes to the truth and the hatred behind the lies. The evidence is all around us: the increase in religious nones, the detachment of our youth toward religion, rising acceptance of Evolution and the ever increasing acceptance that gay people are born the way they are and had no choice any more than you could chose your skin color. All these point to an awakening of reason in our society due to your efforts.

Thank you again for your help in this fight for equality! Keep up the good work! We can’t do this with out you!

@ johns –

Your statement, “will truly bring us toward a more enlightened future where all people straight, gay, Christian or Atheist will finally have equality and be able to live in peace.” is exactly the greatest deception of all time.

The peace that you want does not exist apart from God. Apart from God you will only find death.

“The way of peace they do not know; there is no justice in their paths. They have turned them into crooked roads; no one who walks in them will know peace.” – Isaiah 59:8

“But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death.” – Proverbs 8:36

“But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest” – Isaiah 57:20

As the world grows in anger against the Lord, it is not headed for peace but war. In the last century, the greatest amount of deaths by war testifies against your enlightened future of peace. The scripture tells us that the greatest deception the world will experience will be just before Jesus returns, when the anti-Christ (who has no desire for woman by the way) will be globally accepted when he deceives the world into believing that he has brought world peace. You have already fallen for the trick.

Your statement; “The evidence is all around us: the increase in religious tones, the detachment of our youth toward religion, rising acceptance of Evolution and the ever increasing acceptance that gay people”

These are not evidence of enlightenment, but evidence of the scriptures that tells us many will fall away from the faith, turn from sound doctrine and believe in myths. (2 Timothy 4:3) Putting your faith in the growing number that are turning against God will not save you but condemn you.

“Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD. “ – Genesis 13:13

As the world gathers against the Lord, don’t gather with the world they are on the losing side.

As for my teaching on this blog, the Word of the Lord does not come back void. But always achieves its purpose, just the rain water the grass. – Isaiah 55:11

It is the lack of the living Word that dries up the ground and results in death. So the more Christians are emboldened in their faith, the greater the number that will be saved.

I knew it would be only a matter of time before Sodom was mentioned!

Well now, I think we might look at the story of Sodom and Gommorah (Gen. 18 : 16 – 19: 29). Even a cursory reading of the story leaves one in little doubt that this story has NOTHING whatever to do with consensual sexual relations of any kind, let alone loving sexual partnerships.

Let’s start by looking at the attitude of Abraham. According to the story, he knew that there was much wickedness in Sodom and Gommorah, yet he prayed from the heart for the inhabitants (which would have included women, children and little babies) of those places to be spared. He completely avoided any vengefulness, spite or sense of moral superiority.

Now, what might have been the ‘sin of Sodom’? Perhaps it was [attempted] gang rape (maybe rather similar to what some lesbians in South Africa have had to endure in recent times); maybe it was the abuse of strangers or visitors – who should have been welcomed and cared for; or possibly it was a general disregard for the dignity and needs of other? This link might be helpful: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombibg194.htm

And Lots’ wife? She refused to let go of the past, and wanted to brood on the (supposed) wrongdoings of others, instead of ‘moving on’ and growing in compassion and understading. So she destroyed herself.

I would be very happy to continue with these lines of thought if requested to do so.

Tim is very environmentally friendly – all of his thoughts are recycled material!

Tim wants biblical law. Who does that sound like? Yep, the Taliban. Sharia Law. Tim want the same thing. Lets call it Christoria Law. Where everyone who doesn’t believe EXACTLY as he does is eliminated, from life.

http://theocracywatch.org/biblical_law2.htm

And we begin to see the handywork of Tim’s poisonous vitriol and ideology today

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2011/01/chrissie_bates.php

I hold you, Pawlenty, Bachmann, MFC and FRC hate groups personally responsible.

In order to forestall a fruitless discussion, and because Wendy to alluded to Leviticus, it might be worth thinking also about the Book of Leviticus …

At first glance, it might seem reasonable to use two verses (18 : 22 and 20 :13) from this book to condemn all same-sex relationships. But, before jumping to such a conclusion, one should consider the Book AS A WHOLE.

Two points:-
1. The Book contains a whole raft of prohibitions and punishments that, if applied today, could empty our churches and lead to serious ‘overcrowding’ in burial grounds.
2. (More seriously and importantly, perhaps) The Book was probably compiled in about 550 B.C., when the Jewish people were in exile in Babylon. It represents an attempt to prevent the Jews ‘going native’, and adopting many of the customs and practices of their captors. The two verse I’ve mentioned above may have referred specifically to the practice of ritual homosexual prostitution in Babylonian temples – although, admittedly, we cannot be certain about this.

Taking the Book as a whole, what might it be saying to Christians today? Well, those of us who call ourselves should take care not to ‘go native’ and adopt wholesale the customs, practices and attitudes of the societies in which we find ourselves. How might this relate to Uganda, for example? Well, given that Uganda is, in many ways, a somewhat homophobic society, it might be argued that those who preach hatred against their gay compatriots are ‘going native’, instead of embracing the core values of the Christian Faith: compassion; forgiveness; a preparedness to listen carefully to others and respond graciously to their true needs; respect for the intrinsic dignity of the human person (from the unborn child to the gay prostitute; from the expectant mother, whose life or well-being is threatened, to the terminally ill; from those who are considered to be of no social worth to captains of industry; from paupers to presidents) …

Look at what the gay and Nazi revisionist “Pink Swastika” author Scott “Kill the Gays” Lively has been up to btw… such a good christian.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2011/01/massachusetts-convicted-sex-offender.html

@Richard –

Your idea to disregard parts of the scriptures, by suggesting that the “Word of God” is only the words of Jesus (the red text in your bible) rather than the entire bible, is not sound doctrine.

Because scripture contains God saying many times that scripture is the “Word of God” (Jer 1:9, 31:2; 2 Sam 23:2; 1 Kings 20:13) and Jesus is God “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), therefore the Words of God, which are the scriptures are the words of Jesus.

Send your legal counsel back to the drawing board.

With that in mind, we who are in Christ are to rid ourselves of sexual immorality, which are part of the life that we once lived before Christ. We cannot continue in these things.

“Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these” – Colossians 3

Since living in truth with God and self the way He makes you is in no way immoral Tim, I take your rhetoric as a personal death threat. Your hood is showing. Dominionism is a CULT!!!

CULT: By its primary dictionary definition, the term cult just means a system of religious beliefs or rituals. It is based on a farming term in Latin meaning cultivation. Sociologists and anthropologists sometimes use the term cult to describe religious structure or belief patterns with meanings (usually non-pejorative) unique to their disciplines. In modern usage, the term cult is often used by the general public to describe any religious group they view as strange or dangerous. Thus, cult can describe religious leaders or organizations that employ abusive, manipulative, or illegal control over their followers’ lives. In addition to these usages, Christians generally have a doctrinal component to their use of the word. Cult in this sense, is a counterfeit or serious deviation from the doctrines of classical Christianity, usually using the term cult with a Christian or doctrinal definition in mind. In most cases the group claims to be Christian, but because of their aberrant beliefs on central doctrines of the faith (God, Jesus, and salvation), the organization is not considered by to be part of orthodox, biblical Christianity.

@Katie B. –

It’s good to hear that you are still following along. As you know, the Lord has called you to something much greater. When will you put your trust in Him and abandon your life for that sake of the work He has for you?

“Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.” – Luke 9:23-24

@Wendy –

Although I’m not sure what this ‘Dominionism’ talk is all about. I know that you plot against me and seek to put me to death as does the SPLC.

“They plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them;” – Psalm 37:12
“They watch for the righteous and seek to put him to death.” – Psalm 37:32

Yet I wish you no harm.

Let’s see, you threaten me AND accuse me of doing the threatening. I’m concerned about your mental health. Truly

Tim and Wendy: Let’s cut out the death threat talk, shall we?

Tim

NONE of the passages you cite above says that the Bible is the Word (‘W’) of God. What each says is that Jeremiah / David / Elijah is speaking words (‘w’) inspired by God. Not the same thing – sorry!

But your main problem is that you ‘pick out’ little bits of the Bible that appear to suit your own argument, rather than looking at whole stories and whole books, and thinking carefully about what they teach us about God and his ways … and the ways we should seek to follow. Remember also that the Bible reflects the writers’ own understanding of God; an understanding that must inevitably be greater in New Testament times, given that this is where the ultimate revelation of God in Christ is explicitly recorded. Not everything in the Bible (and especially in the O.T.) should be taken at ‘face value’, rather the whole Bible must be interpreted in the light of Christ, if it is to be properly understood. (Of course, ANY interpretation of one’s religion’s holy book, including yours, is relative and proximate – something that religious fundamentalists [of all kinds] seem not to understand. NONE of us is God; ALL of our interpretations will be coloured to some extent by our own prejudices and experiences. This is inevitable.)

The idea that people like Wendy are plotting your death is ridiculous. All she wants is for people to stop saying things that could incite hatred and violence against gay people. I want the same thing, actually. (You are perfectly entitled to present a view that same-sex relationships are morally wrong* … like legal tax avoidance, or not giving enough money to charity, or not helping an old lady across the road, for example; what is indefensible is spreading lies about gay people in order to promote hatred against them.)

* Obviously, I would strongly, but respectfully, disagree with you on that: I fail to see how any genuinely loving relationship can be morally wrong, still less deemed a crime.

Tim’s comments toward me are EXTREMELY creepy.

I think Tim may have ‘difficulty’ with people who disagree with him, especially if they are people to whom he believes his is superior.

Christian Reconstructionism/ Dominion Theology/ Rushdooney

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2005/11/25/161632/98

http://dissidentvoice.org/May2004/Bageant0518.htm

@ Paul, this fundamentalism and the funding and defense of it by these groups feels very deadly to me and my friends in Uganda. I hope they comment.

@Wendy –

Your attempt to paint me as some far-out thinker is bogus. I am a mainline Christian, who believes in the same things as the majority of Christians including the Catholic Church.

My ideas and quotes are taken directly from the very scriptures that you claim to believe in.

You are the far-out thinker that is desperately trying to disregard by ideas so that you can remain under the Christian label. But you are not fooling anyone in heaven or on earth. True Christians will remain true to the doctrine of Christianity.

Spare us all the bullshit Tim. You are trying to sell genocidal ideology and holocaust revisionism and probably are a minion for the FRC. Nothing mainline about that, and it shows on its own merits.
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/12/29/world-net-daily-selling-discredited-book-about-gays-and-nazis/

Tim, dear -

The leadership of the Catholic Chruch has spoken out clearly against ‘all forms of violence and unjust discrimination’ against LGBT persons, as well as ‘discriminatory penal legislation’. This is in the starkest contrast to people like Scott Deadly (I’m a little surprised that noone has coined that sobriquet before!).

A ‘mainline’ Christian, huh? Maybe in Uganda, but not here in the U.K., I can assure you!

Your literary analysis of the Bible is somewhat defective (‘words’ is not the same thing as ‘the Word’), by the way. Maybe you’d like to answer my points on this above? I am happy to continue with that discussion.

Examining the original Greek words translated as “homosexual” and “homosexuality” in three New Testament passages, scholars have concluded that the original words have been translated inaccurately in modern English.

What we read as “homosexuals” and “homosexuality” actually refers to male prostitutes and the men who hire them. The passages address prostitution — sex as a commodity — and not same-sex, consensual relationships.

The word “homosexual” first appeared in an English-language Bible in 1958. Jay Bakker, Evangelical pastor and son of Jim and Tammy Faye, is part of a group petitioning Bible publishers to remove the words “homosexual” and “homosexuality” from new translations and replace it with terms that more precisely reflect the original Greek.

More words from the Pope:-

“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.”

I have no doubt that things such as have been said by the likes of Scott Lively constitute ‘violent malice’, and thus, as a Christian (and one who has pastoral, and other, responsibilities in the church that I attend), regard it my duty to condemn utterly books like the ‘Pink Swastika’.

This article, from the National Catholic Reporter is also ‘worth a read’.
http://ncronline.org/news/hope-houston-extremes-uganda

It is folks like Tim that are beginning to make me believe that Christians need to be disqualified from holding public office on the grounds that they cannot be trusted to make law on the basis of common good and civil rights, rather than the dictatorial mandates of a Sharia-like code of religious purity laws.

It is perhaps no accident that ‘christian’ countries like the U.S. and the U.K. have groped their way towards some sort of recognisable democracy. Britain’s long road to ‘democracy’ arguably started with Alfred the Great, who wrote down laws, and set himself ‘under them’. His inspiration was a book (which he personally translated from Latin into Old English) called ‘Pastoral Care’ by Pope Gregory the Great; this book stipulated how those in authority should behave.

Christianity has no ‘religious purity laws’, of course. This is something that sets it apart from the other Abrahamic faiths. It is therefore profoundly ironic (and disturbing) when some people talk as if it does. The formulation of civil law must indeed be based on respect for human dignity and the common good; this is a proper understanding of what the core values of Christianity demand in the social and political sphere.

harlo –

I’m convinced that you’re absolutely correct in what you say about the use of the word ‘homosexual’ in the NT. A better translation of the word Saint Paul used in his first letter to the Church in Corinth would be ‘pimp’ or ‘pervert’, and not ‘homosexual’, still less ‘homosexual person’. Many translations now use such terms in their translations of I Cor. 6 : 9.

I see no ‘blanket ban’ on consensual same-sex relationships in the NT (or in the OT either, for that matter – those ‘infamous’ verses in Leviticus may well refer to ritual prostitution in Babylonian temples in the sixth century B.C.; the story of Sodom is clearly nothing to with consensual relationships of any kind).

@Katie B. –

In your statement, “Christians need to be disqualified from holding public office”, you are calling for the discrimination based on religious beliefs. It is not equality that you want, but legal discrimination and persecution.

That is not only against the US Constitution’s provision for the freedom of religion, but clearly an attack on Christianity. As I have said before, the campaign of the SPLC does not increase human rights, it tires them down. They are targeting Christians as terrorists so they can be removed them from society, just like communism.

If you succeed, you will destroy the nation as you push down the pillars of freedom and liberty the entire nation will deteriorate. Look closely at what the SPLC is advocated for, because the result will not improve your life, but make it much worse. Without these critical freedoms that inspire people in our nation to succeed and innovate, the nation will quickly lose its economic success and will spiral further into a social-welfare controlled state the looks more and more like a communist nation.

Take Cuba or Russia for example to see the direction that the SPLC will take the nation. The freedom of religion and liberty are not just important, they are essential to the future of our nation. The SPLC’s campaign against the US Constitution is not something that you want to be a part of.

Tim: How is the SPLC’s long-running work against intolerance a “campaign against the US Constitution”? Is their work identifying racist skinheads, eco-terrorists, black separatists and neo-Nazis part of this campaign?

@Richard –

If you have nothing else to add to your case and rest your case on the notion that the scriptures can be discredited because they are not the words of God, than I wish you the best of luck.

Even modern science has recently accepted the evidence that points to the creation of the universe just as the bible describes it, and thus giving the Old Testament description of creation the most accurate account in the world.

The Genesis description was not written from eye witnesses or from stories passed through generations, but from by a man that wrote the words that God told him to write. He just wrote them down.

In the same way, the bible declares that scripture is in not the words of man, because none of the ideas came from man, but from God.

Link, please: “Even modern science has recently accepted the evidence that points to the creation of the universe just as the bible describes it, and thus giving the Old Testament description of creation the most accurate account in the world.”

@Paul –

Do you agree with Katie B. that some people should be disqualified from public office because of their religious beliefs?

I do not.

Now, if you could provide a link for that last claim and answer my question, that’d be swell.

Tim –

Your understanding of the Bible is your view; my view is different.

As far as the Genesis story is concerned, I too would be most interested to see credible scientific evidence to back your claim. I would say that to view the Creation storIES (there are really two of them, and they are not the same) as scientific fact is to completely miss the point of them: they are allegories with profound theological and moral meanings.

The Bible is not a ‘self-proving brief’; it is collection of writings, brought together into a ‘single entity’, over a considerable period of time up to a little after A.D. 400. It is not ‘infallible’; it is not meant to be an ‘object of worship’; it was written by people – inspired I’m sure, but still people. It IS extremely important, of course, but it should be read ‘intelligently’, as well as with devotion.

You have of course deliberately misrepresented what I said (rather as people like Scott Lively deliberately [and viciously] misrepresent gay people) – your own ‘self-proving brief’, perhaps? I said that the Bible was not the Word (‘W’) of God, but that Jesus is. This is nothing other than orthodox Christian belief.

Much of the earlier part of O.T. is narrative – some of it really quite … well, yes …
The O.T. is included in the Canon of Scripture to show where our faith has come from – its provenance and historical, philosophical and theological background, if you like. The apparent conflict between pictures of God presented in the O.T. and N.T. (and there IS a conflict – no truthful person can ‘dodge’ that one) can be understood in that light. But it is Christ who shows what God is truly like – some of the ideas of God presented in the Bible can be highly misleading if they are not understood in the proper literary and historical contexts – and that is why Christians are asked to believe that He (Jesus), and not a (collection of) book(s), is the Word of God.

@Paul –

I cannot find the original link, I will continue looking, but I did find an article that was part of the same discussion.

As a scientist I’m certain Stephen Hawking is wrong. You can’t explain the universe without God

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1308599/Stephen-Hawking-wrong-You-explain-universe-God.html

Tim –

I have no problem with the idea that God is behind the miracle of creation, but this does not mean that the two biblical accounts and literally true. My view is that they are not, and that their function is rather more profound (in a moral and theological sense) than that of a rather old edition of a scientific journal!

(Incidentally, you’re not suggesting that the Daily Mail is the Word of God, are you?!)

Tim –

I have no problem with the idea that God is behind the miracle of creation, but this does not mean that the two biblical accounts are literally true. My view is that they are not, and that their function is rather more profound (in a moral and theological sense) than that of a rather old edition of a scientific journal!

(Incidentally, you’re not suggesting that the Daily Mail is the Word of God, are you?!)

Here’s a sensible comment (from a link on the article that Tim has just cited):-

Lord Sacks said: ‘Science is about explanation. Religion is about interpretation… The Bible simply isn’t interested in HOW (my emphasis) the universe came into being.’

The Daily Mail has just risen in my estimation (although it was only quoting the Chief Rabbi of course)!

@Paul –

The SPLC’s work against intolerance is really a campaign against tolerance. Their targeted list of hate groups are designed to gain public support to classify these groups as outsiders that should not be tolerated by society, legally and politically.

The idea is to not tolerant anyone that does not agree with the ideas of the SPLC and the use any means – including religious discrimination – against these groups.

Now I know the statement that the SPLC uses to classify hate groups includes language that suggests they are not discriminating against religious beliefs, only those that repeat ideas that they believe are offensive. But let’s not kid ourselves.

The application of their statement results is labeling anyone that expresses their religious believes that the SPLC find offensive as a hate group, which the Christian doctrine clearly contains. So any Christian organization that repeatedly expresses their beliefs falls into the SPLC’s classification and become a target for discrimination.

Therefore the SPLC is clearly classifying Christianity as an approved target for legal and political discrimination, in which they are not only in violation of the US Constitution and its support for the freedom of religion and religious discrimination, but are laying the foundation for legal action against Christianity as Katie B. has already endorsed, perhaps without realizing exactly what she is supporting.

@Tim – when you stop advocating the abridgement of my rights, I will stop advocating that you should leave the political sphere to others.

Tim –

There are plenty of Christian organisations that are NOT listed as ‘hate groups’ by organisations like the SPLC. As far as I can see, it is only those so-called ‘christian’ groups that present their views in a manner that could promote unjust treatment of others (on, for example, grounds of their sexuality) that are so listed.

‘Freedom of religion’ does not entitle anyone to use propaganda to undermine others.

The idea that the SPLC is classifying Christianity* per se ‘as an approved target …’ is not a correct interpretation of the action they have taken over certain extremist groups.

* N.B. Many Christians do not have the same idea as you as to what constitutes ‘Christianity’. I am one such Christian – as I’m sure you’ve guessed by now.

(By the way, I thought that Jesus said that Christians must be prepared to be persecuted, even if they don’t try to persecute others! Now that IS in the Bible!)

@Richard – Thank you, exactly. What Tim is advocating is not something that can be categorized under “freedom of religion” – and there is a huge difference between the systematic advocacy to abridge others’ civil and religious rights and an off the cuff expression of irritation and frustration, before Tim even says anything back to me.

It is not an infringement of your religious rights for married same-sex couples to have the same rights under the law as any other couple, any more than it is an infringement of the rights of a traditionalist Catholic couple for married non-Catholic or mixed-religion couples to have the same rights under the law.

Katie –

I absolutely agree that the provisions of both criminal and civil law should, as far as is humanly possible, not discriminate between different kinds of persons. Any departure from this principle would spell disaster for both our countries (US and UK), as it could so easily open the ‘floodgates’ to all kinds of horrors. As I’ve already pointed out, even the head of Catholic Church in England and Wales has ‘admitted’ that the provision in law for civil partnerships for same-sex couples is not something he is inclined to oppose (and Vincent Nichols is something of a ‘conservative’ Catholic).

Tim: You’re a scientist? Could you share your credentials?

Paul – So am I (a scientist)! (Just thought it might interest you to know that.)

@Tim

Law doesn’t exclude you from your discriminating thoughts and practices. You have chosen your religion and make the choice every day to continue in that choice. Its time that you allow anyone else to follow in their own choice. your moral decay as a human is allowed, by law. I will stand up for that right as long as I live.

The idea that someone can abridge another’s rights under the guise of “freedom of religion” hails from the same spiritual cancer that creates the meme “you have to tolerate my intolerance!” – it is attempting to abuse and misuse the good intentions of others to promote ill intentions of your own toward them.

“Freedom of religion” also includes the freedom FROM it too, especially Tim’s extremist misinterpretation of scripture. FRC’s bedfellow Brian Fischer at another Hate Group is advocating for “biblical Law” in the town square and some nitwit governor just essentially disqualified himself for PUBLIC SERVICE by declaring only “christian” ists are my brothers and sisters. Tims theology advocates for an American theocracy and he knows it, which is why he tries so hard on this thread and others to spin the conversations. Tell me Tim, is this what you folks are up to in your “Truth Project” meetings or are you a paid theocrat for FRC/MFC?

@Katie B. –

I see, so it is “attempting to abuse and misuse the good intentions of others to promote ill intentions of your own towards them.”

Explain how this Christian business owner, who was sued out of business by the gay lobby just because they didn’t like their policy, which was based on personal Christian convictions, was promoting the ill intentions or hurting anyone?

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20110118/judge-rules-against-christian-guesthouse-owners/

There were many other places they could have stayed at, but they purposely tried to break the policy of this elderly couple, just to force their own personal convictions upon them.

As you can see, it is the gay lobby that is attacking and suing good and honest people, without regard for them and with ill intentions towards them. The gay lobby does not want to be left along. They have ill intentions towards everyone that does not agree with them. They are intolerant.

It’s very simple, Tim. If you are open as a business you must serve all customers and you must serve all customers equally. If you choose to discriminate against customers, you can expect to get your asses sued off, because you are BREAKING THE LAW. All LGBT people are not part of some shadowy cabal – we’re people, Tim, just like you, and we expect to be equal citizens. That means we don’t have to kowtow to whiny religious perverts who think that it matters what we have in our pants or who’s having sex with whom.

I’m tired of this. Either you grow up and accept that being Christian doesn’t give you an automatic pass on being a perverted asshole, or go away.

Tim

So are you going to answer Paul’s question?? Also where are your references?? Still waiting for this amazing information from you that will change all our lifes.

Tim –

The case you cite is ‘part-and-parcel’ of the working out of law (in this case the 2004 Act that makes provision for Civil Partnerships in the U.K.) in a democratic society. I’m sure that whoever finally ‘loses’ (I’m not sure if the Appeal has yet been concluded) will receive support (inclduing financial support) from their supporters.

Let’s now look at the wider picture: LGBT persons across the world (including in democratic states such as ours – a gay man was killed in London only last month, for example) are, on a daily basis, the object of ridicule, unwarranted suspicion, harrassment, violent malice, violence, torture or murder. Will you join me (and Wendy and Katie and others) in condemning this state of affairs?

Richard – let’s not forget that here in Minneapolis, Krissy Bates, a transsexual woman was murdered just two weeks ago, by a man whom Tim would presumably categorize as a “good, honest” Christian. In a broader sense, she died because her landlords through malicious neglect made her apartment a deathtrap – refusing to do basic maintenance on her apartment and on her building, which allowed someone with murderous intention to enter what should have been a safe haven for her. Presumably her landlords would also be “good, honest” Christian businesspeople by Tim’s standards.

http://twincities.indymedia.org/2011/jan/transmisogyny-cis-people-violence-and-murder-krissy-bates

In a very real sense, anyone who doesn’t vocally condemn acts of cruelty, discrimination and bias against LGBT people – especially against trans people, who in many ways bear the harshest burden of society’s anti-queer bias – has blood on their hands.

The London attack was savage and totally unprovoked. The victim was in his early sixties; the two criminals (they have now been convicted of manslaughter) were a young homophobic male-female couple who were full of drink.

Tim, again -

Please answer the following questions YES or NO. Thank you.

Do you

1. condemn all forms of violence against LGBT persons?

2. condemn all discriminatory penal legislation against LGBT persons?

3. condemn all forms of misrepresentation of LGBT persons, individually or ‘as a group’?

4. oppose discriminatory civil legislation against LGBT persons?

5. oppose the negative stereotyping of the LGBT persons ‘as a group’?

(BTW, the criminals I refer to above were convicted of ‘aggravated manslaughter’ – which is tantamount to ‘second-degree’ murder – because of the evidently homophobic nature of the killing; they escape a conviction for murder because the attack was not proven beyond reasonable doubt to be have premeditated.)

Richard – and the attack on Krissy wasn’t unprovoked and savage? The coroner gave her cause of death as “complex homicidal trauma” – meaning she was attacked in multiple ways and hit multiple times, which is a clear indication of a hate crime. And she’s DEAD, so she can’t fight for herself any longer.

The idea that attacks on gay people are “savage and unprovoked” but the murder of trans people isn’t? I think you need to check yourself.

@Richard –

Yes, I am against violence against gay people and have never endorced violence against them. Yet they are viciously attacking the Christians with ill intentions, as I have pointed out.

They do not want peace. They want Christians removed from society – just as Hitler did – although they are not killing them yet, but instead are using a communism strategy to enfore their religious beliefs onto society by law as was the case that I sighted.

Alone the way, the freedoms of religions and of speech are being destroyed around the world, sending the world back to a global state of communism.

Tim. Gays “want Christians removed from society – just as Hitler did”? Really? I know many gay and lesbian Christians, both in my neighborhood and at my Catholic parish in Minneapolis. Am I to believe that they want to remove themselves from society? Also, it’s a cruel bastardization of history to equate gays — who were targeted by Hitler — with Hitler himself. Finally, please educate us: You reference “sending the world back to a global state of communism.” When, exactly, has the entire world been communist?

I realize you’re irrational, and very possibly sick, but I’m curious if you can respond with facts and reason, not hysteria, to these points.

Tim

Again you state baseless accusations. Please give references to your claims. Also, are you going to answer Paul’s request for your credentials from when you claimed to be a scientist above?

You know what? No. You don’t have freedom to make other people less than you because they disagree with you, Tim. That’s part of what pluralism is about – no point of view is inherently superior and no one is allowed to turn someone else into their slave because they disagree. And that’s the world you fetishize: a world where Christians are permitted to discriminate and oppress because they claim that it’s their religion. You’re NOT allowed to do that. You CAN’T. It’s NOT PERMITTED.

We’re not talking about ANY religious rite here – we are talking about CIVIL MARRIAGE, which is a legal arrangement between two people and the state, regarding the legal rights and legal recognition of their relationship. Religion comes into it only when and as desired. Suppose a conservative Catholic were to argue that allowing any non-Catholic to be legally married and benefit from the legal perquisites of marriage were a violation of their religious rights. Such a person would be laughed out of court – yet the Catholic church held once and still holds that non-Catholic marriages are invalid.

@BJ – Tim seems to assume that conservative Christianity is the default and unassailable, and that its standards are objectively true, so anyone asserting rights that a right-wing Christian might object to is attempting to enforce a theocracy.

Tim -

Further to others’ comments above, I would point out that the notion that ‘gay people’ and ‘Christians’ are two separate groups of people is pure fantasy; there is very considerable ‘overlap’ – i.e. there are many gay people who are very committed Christians, as a leading British Catholic (Chris Patten) pointed out during the Pope’s visit to the U.K..

As others have done, the idea that gay people wish to ‘rid the world of Christians, as did Hitler’ is ridiculous. (For the record, Hitler reserved his abusive psycho-sexual behaviour for FEMALE ‘victims’, and was nominally a Catholic. So – wrong and wrong again, Timmy dear!)

Now, would you like to answer my other four questions (I take it that your answer to my first question was a grudging ‘YES’)?

@John –

Badgering the witness does not improve your case. I suggest you review the evidence and take it up with the judge.

@Richard -

The answer to your other four questions is subjective to your interpretation. The detailed of my Yes you may interpret as No based on your pre-existing bias. None the less, my answer is Yes – I oppose discrimination against people that want to live out a sexuality.

But in most cases, they are not being discriminated against, and the gay lobby is completely lying about many of the cases they claim without evidence – because they are hyper-sensitive and have become Christianphobic.

They are perpetuating pure propaganda to take advantage of the public’s lack of understanding of their true motive, which are to create a theocracy to legally persecute Christians as I have shown this is the goal of the SPLC. The result will not lead the world to a peaceful utopia, but to a state of communist rule in which morality will be removed from law. (lawlessness)

The current events fit very nicely into the scriptures prophecies relating to the end of this age that Jesus talked about especially in Matthew 25, 26, just before the lawless one gains control of the world for a short time before the return of Christ. I realize this last part may be out of our reach as a Catholic who trusts the Catholic Churchs’ interpretation of the scripture rather than reading them yourself and it may be easier to discard this than try to understand it, but I have given you the benefit of hearing it, perhaps for the first time. We are quickly approaching the end of this age and the gay lobby is playing its part in the establishment of the lawless one – who is globally accepted as a man who does not desire women.

And now Tim’s gone completely off the deep end. Matt. 25:26 is part of the Parable of the Talents. Speaking of which, it may be worth Tim’s while to re-read the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, which is the only place in the Bible where Jesus himself says who will be saved and who will be damned. It says NOTHING about sexual activity – only that those who do good and help others without judgment are God’s children, and those who act only for their own pleasure are not. Tim… is not.

@Richard -

Sorry, I meant Matthew 24, 25. Here is an interesting passage;

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.” – Matthew 24:9-11

This is what is happening today, as the gay lobby and other anti-Christ groups gain political power they are persecuting Christians all around the world and many that claim to be Christians are turning away from the faith and betraying each other and being tricked into disregarding the clear teaching of the bible. Many Christians are already being put to death around the world because they are the only resistance to the lawless one.

You should take a look at some of the prophecies of the scriptures and compare them to the current events. You would be shocked at how many similarities there are. This is not some fictional ‘left behind’ book series, this is happening.

So… religious freedom is a sign of the End Times. Figures.

@Tim
What do you propose we do with gay Christians (there are may in our Christian church)? Rehab them? After all, God created them to be gay Christians?

Tim –

I would take the view that you are a ‘false prophet’. There is no justification for vilifying whole groups of people as you seem to do gay people.

You’ve dodged my (straightforward) questions by resorting to rhetoric, I see. I see no ‘evidence’ presented by you that the SPLC is stirring up hatred against Christians per se. They are opposing those so-called ‘christians’ who are telling lies about gay people in order to discredit such people.

All this stuff about the ‘end times’ is a diversion from the issue here. And why should a man who ‘does not desire a woman’ necessarily be ‘lawless’? ‘Lawlessness’ is about behaviour, not ‘desire’. People who engage in the cheap and dishonest stereotyping of others, and in the malicious misrepresentation of historical realities, are seriously ‘lawless’ in my opinion; they are a threat to human decency, mutual respect and, potentially, public order.

However, I welcome that you say you oppose violence unjust penal legislation against gay people, even though you appear to switch into ‘victim’ mode immediately after having done so. However, it is the case that some ‘christian’ extremists do support penal legislation against gays (only) for consensual sexual acts in which both gay and straight people engage. I hope you will now actively oppose the efforts of such people (the aforementioned ‘christian’ extremists), since you have now publicly expressed the view that they are wrong.

@Richard –

The ‘Lawlessness’ that the scripture refers to is related to God laws. The commandments of God documented in scripture are the laws of God, which have been include in the laws of many nations. The ‘lawless one’ described in scripture completely rejects Jesus and all Gods laws. That is why he is called lawless. The laws of each nation are not what the scripture is talking about because they are suggest to constant change while the laws of God on constant throughout the history.

The only things that never change are dead. What does that say about Tim’s god?

Gays dont reject Christianity. They reject fundamentalist-extremism.

This is an orchestrated PR campaign from teh FRC and Catholic church. Your lies are both pathetic and desperate Tim. How’s that prophecy thing and taking dominion over all things secular? Is that your purpose here Tim? Cuz no one is buying your baseless bullshit. Thankfully.

I thought constitutional amendments came about to protect individual rights (especially those in the minority view) not to limit the rights of those you do not agree with.

@Wendy -

Your definition of “fundamentalist-extremism” includes anyone that expresses faith and belief in the Christian scriptures.

The SPLC’s hate group idea is a strategy to expand the idea of “fundamentalist-extremism” in order to pressure all Christians and Christian organizations and force them to choose either to be labeled a “fundamentalist-extremism” for believing in the same thing that every Christian has always believed and knows to be to true (Galatians 5:19-21) even without reading the scriptures or to cave in, turn away from the faith and betray each other (as the scripture I sighted previously calls it) in exchange to retain the label of Christianity and a false sense of security in which the gay lobby is offering to not continue persecuting them – at least for now.

The same things happen in Germany when Hitler came into power, the Christian churches were forces to compromise their faith or face persecution and even death. The sooner the Christian churches compromised their faith the sooner Hitler took over, and once he was in complete power he turned on the Christian Churches that looked the other way and destroyed many of them as well.

It is stories like this that I say – do not compromise – it is a trick. The wolves that you are compromising with will eat you next – and for what? You will have lost your faith and resulted in the same fate. It’s not worth it.

“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven” – Matthew 10:33

The best two options are to stand up for your Christian faith and choose to stand on the Lord’s side, regardless of the consequences or to denounce the Christian faith and join the many that are gathers against God.

Just look what is happening in Canada, the gay lobby didn’t stop at same-sex marriage, that have continued to persecute Christians of all kinds and have instituted their religious beliefs into the laws and now the government employees are carrying out religious persecution. What a mistake they have made.

@Carl – You have it exactly. The fad of amending constitutions to deny rights to oppressed minorities will be one of the things that future generations damn us for.

Tim –

Some more questions for you:-

1. Is Scott Lively ‘on the Lord’s side’ in your opinion?

2. Are those who tell lies about others respecting God’s Law (Exodus 20 : 16)?

3. How do you reconcile certain ‘pictures’ of God (and His ‘law’) in the O.T. with the teaching and example of the One whom Christians believe to be the ‘Human face of God’?

4. Is it, as you sometimes seem to suggest, necessarily the case that people who disagree with you are ‘persecuting’ you?

5. Are those who engage in ‘hate speech’ against others respecting God’s Law (even if they say they are ‘doing it for God’)?

6. Who else did the Hitler regime kill besides ‘good’ Christians?

7. What is the role of the Mosaic Law in these New Testament times? Did Saint Paul tell ‘Followers of the Way’ (the epithet given to ‘Christians’ in his day) that they must follow the Mosaic Law ‘to the letter’ and in its entirety?

8. What do you understand by Jesus’s summary of his teaching about ‘the Law’ in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 7 : 12)?

I look forward to your responses.

@Katie B. –

Your statement “If you are open as a business you must serve all customers and you must serve all customers equally. If you choose to discriminate against customers, you can expect to get your asses sued off, because you are BREAKING THE LAW.”

This is pure communism, whether you realize it for not. Never has this been true in the US. No one MUST work for someone else by law – that is called slavery. We live under the Constitution, which allows everyone to live according to their beliefs and express them. We are free to do business with the customer that we want to, just as we are free to work for the businesses that we want to.

What you are advocating for is pure communism, which has been proven not to work. Without freedom of labor, speech, religions, etc. you do not have a free country. If you want someone to accept your ideas, the way to do it in the US is not by threats or by force as the gay lobby is engaged in, but by persuasion. And if you cannot persuade someone of your ideas, you have no right to institute your ideas into law and force them upon someone else.

I’m not sure what you have been reading, but you are advocating pure communism. If you get your way, the nation would not be better off. You and everyone else would suffer under the communism rules. Human rights violations would not improve, but would be much worse.

Your anger is clearly misguided at the US Constitutional provision for freedom. As I have said before, you are pushing of the pillars of our society that hold up the entire nation.

Tim

So when someone asks you to bake up one of your claims they are “badgering” you? Wow that is childish. It’s real easy Timmy, you claimed to be a scientist, WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS????? Answer Paul’s question already!!!

If I’m on the side of “communism,” so is the United States Government and for that matter so is Her Majesty’s Government – since this took place in the United Kingdom – the Civil Rights Act of 1964, numerous pieces of follow-up legislation and many Equality Acts in the UK up to and including Equality Act 2010, explicitly state that a public accomodation – that is, a business which accomodates and serves the public – MAY NOT DISCRIMINATE.

Tim, you are a sickening, violent little man and your rhetoric kills.

Tim, it’s easy… who has the rights and power, whos using it to withhold rights and protections from others? There are your communists, Hitlers (fourth) Reich. Clue*** it ain’t the gays.

The shoe fits perfectly Tim. Wear it.

@Wendy – It’s very simple: The privileged class is feeling its privilege being pinched a teeny-tiny bit and it gets all up in arms about being persecuted. We see this in corporate politics as well and the heavy propaganda against any form of worker organization.

Richard

If you are waiting for a responce from Tim you will never get it. He is an absolute joke. He can not back any statement that he makes. He is a TROLL.

Oh, and he is NOT A CHRISTIAN!

John –

I certainly take the view that Tim appears to be ‘theologically challenged’!

@Richard –

You are betraying your follow Christians in your own country. The IJK story of the elderly couple that has been sued by a gay couple continues to unfold.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1349489/The-Christian-hotelier-guilty-gay-bias-looks-set-lose-home-asks-So-whos-really-persecuted.html

“When the judgment was delivered, I was disappointed, but I can’t help feeling this isn’t over yet. There are many people in Britain, Christian or not, who are very worried about being told what to believe in their own homes.

‘This is a head-on collision between two lifestyles which are both equally protected under the human rights charter, but it seems our rights are now less equal.”

“Hazelmary says she has been shocked by the 50 or so abusive and obscene ­messages she has also received.

Some of them, she claims, are from people purporting to be gay couples trying to book a double room. ”

“Christians are definitely being marginalized. There is no question about it and we have to be careful that we don’t exchange one brand of oppression for another. The human rights charter says faith is protected not just in the home but in the workplace. Well, this is my workplace.’”

You see, the gay lobby is opening persecuting Christians in the UK and Canada and now they are targeting the US.

You are delusional to think that this is not religious persecution – an element of communism – spreading like cancer. This is not about gay rights. This is about a hatred for God and everything He stands for, which included His people.

And for what reason does man hate God? For what reason can be made to persecute Christians? For what reason can man give God for direct disregard for His loving offering and His commands that protect man from destruction?

None can be found, just as Jesus was hated. “But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’ – John 15:25

Richard you are making a grave mistake and your eternity depends on in – regardless of how you were born.

“4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.” – 1 John 3

Christians are born of God and therefore cannot continue to sin, because God remains in them. This verse tells us that when someone does not stop sinning, after claiming to be a Christian, their unwillingness to repent is evidence that they do not known Christ and are not justified, because they are not born of God and there is no seed of God in them. If you love God, you must overcome your ways. God requires repentance, forgiveness and a changed life. But it is worth it, trust him I have found a deeper relationship with God can overcome anything.

@Katie B. –

Now you are starting to realize that yes, you are supporting communism, which the gay lobby has been able to get established in the UK and Canada. This is not progress, but a major reduction in human rights.

This will lead to many wars as the hatred for God continues to build and the nations gather against the Lord.

It’s worth repeating again. Stop engaging Tim. He’s delusional. As a life-long Christian (I’m 66 years old) Tim in no way represents mainline Christianity. His interpretation of Jesus’ teachings is upside-down. 180 degrees out of phase. God is love – the only thing that remains after we are gone is the love we give away.

@ChapterandVerse –

Show me the scriptures that prove me wrong? God is love, but love demands justice and justice demands obedience to the law of righteousness.

Stop defamating Christians Tim. You are an ideological extremist trying to hide with “Christianity” and everyone seems to know it but you. You and your ilk are an extremist sect fomenting sectarian crapology against real human beings and TAX PAYING AMERICANS. You can believe in the tooth fairy for all anyone cares, but it is NOT a justification to withhold promise and protections of the Constitution to an entire class of citizens. The withholding of rights and protections is what is COMMUNIST!

“God is love, but love demands justice and justice demands obedience to the law of righteousness.” What drivel…

Any religion that promises a better life after you die is robbing you of your life here and now. Be in the present, love the life you have – here – now.

Tim

You claimed to be a scientist in a post. What are your credentials?

Tim

Quick question….Do you follow the dual seedline doctrine of christianity?

@ChapterandVerse –

Christianity promises a better life while you live AND after your die. That is why Jesus came, to show us a better way to live.

@John –

My local credentials are meaningless. The only credentials that have any value are my credentials as an ambassador to Jesus Christ, in which God makes his appeal (2 Cor 5:20).

Tim

Do you follow the dual seedline belief?

Tim

If your credentials are meaningless then don’t start a statement with “as a scientist”. I don’t start a statement with “as an engineer” with out giving my education and work credentials to back my claim of being an engineer.

@Wendy –

My statement … “God is love, but love demands justice and justice demands obedience to the law of righteousness” … is not drivel – but wisdom.

If God was not just, then Jesus would not have come to earth and died. It was God’s love that demanded that justice be paid for our sins that caused Jesus to come and die.

God is gracious and patient with us, but he is also just. If he did not punish those that are guilty of crime, he would not be just – and his kingdom would eventually fall apart because of the anger of the injustice. But we know that his kingdom will stand forever because he is just.

Jesus came to earth to fulfill the justice of his Father, to pay the price for our sins.

“God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his justice. “ – Romans 3:25

“The kingdom of God has come near you” today – Mark 1:15. Repent and give your life to Christ while you still have breath.

Your fundamentalist-extremist ‘religiocity’ HAS NO BEARING on rights and protection provisions for American-born taxpaying citizens.

Religion is mans way of dealing with the dual reality of being alive and having to die.

@ChapterandVerse -

The reality of God is what man struggles with. Especially when man discovered that God is so good that we cannot live up to him. And it is at this discovery, that we find out that God provided a way for us to live up to his righteousness. The way out that God provided is to repent and believe in Jesus Christ – (Romans 6:23). So that his death would be counted against our sins and we would be reconciled with God and be made righteous in God’s sight.

But even though God made this path for us to be reconciled to God (John 3:16), many of us are unwilling to repent and admit what we have done and instead chose to remain living in despair, on the path to eternal death and separation from God. If men only knew how good life is with God rather than without him, they would do anything to make the trade. But they chose to remain living without him, telling themselves all kinds of delusions and excused about religions, desires and devils that made them do it.

God answers man in this dilemma;

“This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. ” – John 3:19-21

The trouble is that God only made one path for man to be reconciled to him and that is through Jesus Christ, because only the blood of Jesus can pay the price of justice that the Father’s love demands.

There is no other way to be reconciled with God. Yet man continues to search the world over for another path, until finally they realize they cannot make peace with God – so they make war with him and hate him for who he is and everything he stands for. This is the path that many end up on, but it is a path to hell because man cannot overpower or dethrone God. God remains the King and they remain residents living in his Kingdoms domain, yet the waged of sin remain counted against them. And we know that the King is just and has made it clear for all to read what the charges are and the penalty is.

And this is why I say;

“The kingdom of God has come near you” today – Mark 1:15. Repent and give your life to Christ while you still have breath.

Tim,

Take your life choice and live it. for that is what your religion is your choice. Stop forcing it down others throats for that is oppressive and is against the law to force it within law.

for your religion is not mine.

@Marie – Would that it were possible. I don’t think I’d ever truck with a god that has such a lousy track record delivering on promises.

@ Katie, I could start the debate, on how the bible contradicts itself. I could go on about how the bible condones slavery, and how if you follow one rule of morality (not just traditional social rules) than you have to follow them all and that you can’t pick and make choice. I could go on then and point out a million other things in a dozen other religions as well.

But that isn’t the problem. I don’t care what your (in this case Tim’s) religion is just do not make me have to follow it. for that is the law. If you need to live within only your belief and only have people around you that follow your religion, there are many other countries that are a religious state. GO THERE.

I will never force you to believe the way I believe. I will never force you to marry a gay person, or to perform a marriage for a gay couple. I will never force you to like a gay person. you can sit in judgement all you want. I don’t care. just do not force it onto the law!

For those who want a very rational discussion on the topic of this thread, I highly recommend “A Time to Embrace,” (www.atimetoembrace.com).

It’s written by William Stacy Johnson, who is the Chair of Theology at Princeton Theological Seminary. An ordained minister and a lawyer, he earned his Ph.D. from Harvard University, his J.D. from Wake Forest University, and his M.Div. from Union Theological Seminary in Richmond.

As a theologian and a lawyer he brings a very lucid view and in-depth discussion to topic. Read it, please, you may find a few new ideas on the topic.

“The government of the US is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.”
George Washington

Tim- You’re an idiot

Tim’s friends are evil. They are sponsoring a no holds barred war against anyone who is of any economic group that does not wholeheartedly support the Tea thugs.