Minnesota Catholics unveil legislative agenda: Ban on gay marriage, help for the poor

If the Catholic bishops are so concerned about the poor, maybe they ought to sell off some property and donate the proceeds to the poor. Or they could use the money they’re otherwise going to use to fight gay marriage to help the poor. Or maybe they could use the money they’d otherwise use to defend pedophile priests to help the poor. The options are endless.

I wonder if poor gay people are included in the ‘common good.’

Is not helping the poor something they already should of been doing? Why are they throwing that around like they are going to do us all a favor?

Exactly WHO redefined marriage? This is the crusades part deux.

http://www.christianity-revealed.com/cr/files/whensamesexmarriagewasachristianrite.html

The “conscience clause” is the willful withholding of womens health not to mention a violation of her body sovereignty. I believe there may be a HIPPA violation there as well violating lawful prescriptions between doctor and patients. Wouldn’t they be better served cleaning their own pedophilic house rather than denying marital rights to gay Minnesotans? And they’re willing to raise taxes to pay to create ‘partial citizenship.’

Disgusting. Stop same sex marriage because heterosexuals are getting divorced or not getting married and having children out of wedlock? HUH? Support to raise taxes (nice, coming from a tax exempt organization). Support anti-bullying as long as it does NOT apply to LGBT students? WOW—seems like an evil agenda to me. So glad i am not part of that cult.

Catholic Church – Please just go away and shut up when it comes to the marriage issue.

If you really want to SAVE marriage and do something about the THREAT to marriage, come down hard on people like Brett Favre and the entire pro-sports industry for the documented, anti-marriage behavior of their stars. Hell, start attacking Hollywood and the lifestyles of the rich and famous. You wouldn’t know where to start if you started digging into all the heterosexual, sex-antics of those folks. These people are the real threats to your ever-so-important heterosexual marriage.

Oh but wait!!

You couldn’t come down hard on these people could you? I’m sure your pews are filled with sports fans and just think what would happen if you started calling-out someones favorite actor? Your parishioners might start saying: “Shut up! It’s none of your business what these people do.” You just might offend the people who give you money and then they might STOP giving you money. What would you do then?

Yes, it’s far better to make-up some imaginary threat to marriage like the good-old homosexual crowd and blame everything on them. That’s the safe thing to do.

Jeez, it’s the 21st century get a life……

Cheers, Joe Mustich, Officiant,
Red Studio Farm, Washington, CT USA

Marriage Ban: This is one reason I’m now a proud member of the First Congregational Church on the Green in Washington, CT….and not the Roman Catholic church.

Let them Talk all they want about Marriage, at the pulpit. Let them scream their lungs out about not supporting the GLBT community, and not including them in social support, within their own community, within their parish.

DO NOT SELL YOUR CRAP AT THE CAPITAL STEPS.

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

So a bunch of old men who took vows of celibacy when they were teenagers are going to tell us all about the morality of our own sexuality.

Got it.

Um, hello??? Separation of church and state?? The church seems to be challenging the state government to remove the tax exempt status they have enjoyed for many years.

The Roman church is doing what everyone was always afraid would happen, trying to influence civil laws in this country. It’s no wonder they were so disliked for so many years. The last thing we need in this country is a Roman Taliban and I hope people do all they can to stop it.

The Minnesota Catholic Conference is a respond to the gay lobby that continues to attack them.

It is the gay lobby that is trying to tear down the rights of Minnesotans, by pushing for same-sex marriage in order to discriminate against any organization that does not endorse their religious ideas.

If the gay lobby did not have a history of using every means to attack the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church wouldn’t have to feel so compelled to stop same-sex marriage.

The Catholic Church is not against people living in committed relationship or anyone who wants to live out their beliefs, but we are against making a religious conviction that is against Catholics into law. Same-sex marriage is the creation of a theocracy and would make government the enforcer of the religious ideas behind same-sex marriage.

Same-sex marriage is completely different from the current marriage laws, which are not based on religions, but based on our design as male and female and are proven by all historical accounts to provide the most benefit to society by way of raising children.

Same-sex marriage would be used to sue the Catholic Church off the map and the millions of poor and needy that they help would be out on the street. Is the gay-lobby going to help the poor? Have they ever? No, because they are too busy raising money to attack the Catholic Church.

The gay lobby should be exposed for what they are; a phony special interest group for the destruction of society, in which no one would benefit and a lot of people would suffer.

If your religion requires you to dictate the legal recognition of other people’s relationships, you have not a religion but a little fascism club.

Is this really that surprising from the Catholic Church?? Their leaders are a bunch of of crusty old white guys that have NEVER BEEN LAID.. ( Not by a consenting adult anyways ) .. I find it a great fallacy of that religion.. The Catholics are getting better however.. They are starting to grasp the fact that their own religion has commited sins.. They actually forgave Galileo for understanding that the Earth Revolved Around the SUN 900 years AFTER the church imprisoned him.. It’s a SLOWWWW process but they are getting better.. It is commendable to address the economic woes of 98 % of the country but Catholics PLEASE!! Leave the Homophobic attitude at the door.. If any religion has perpetuated homosexuality it is CATHOLICISM!

Tim

I will ask again as always, where is the references for your claims? You seem to be able to bloviate but never substantiate.

WHEN SAME-SEX MARRIAGE WAS A CHRISTIAN RITE1

By ThosPayne

St Sergius and St BacchusA Kiev art museum contains a curious icon from St. Catherine’s Monastery on Mt. Sinai in Israel. It shows two robed Christian saints. Between them is a traditional Roman ‘pronubus’ (a best man), overseeing a wedding. The pronubus is Christ. The married couple are both men.

Is the icon suggesting that a gay “wedding” is being sanctified by Christ himself? The idea seems shocking. But the full answer comes from other early Christian sources about the two men featured in the icon, St. Sergius and St. Bacchus,2 two Roman soldiers who were Christian martyrs. These two officers in the Roman army incurred the anger of Emperor Maximian when they were exposed as ‘secret Christians’ by refusing to enter a pagan temple. Both were sent to Syria circa 303 CE where Bacchus is thought to have died while being flogged. Sergius survived torture but was later beheaded. Legend says that Bacchus appeared to the dying Sergius as an angel, telling him to be brave because they would soon be reunited in heaven.

While the pairing of saints, particularly in the early Christian church, was not unusual, the association of these two men was regarded as particularly intimate. Severus, the Patriarch of Antioch (512 – 518 CE) explained that, “we should not separate in speech they [Sergius and Bacchus] who were joined in life”. This is not a case of simple “adelphopoiia.” In the definitive 10th century account of their lives, St. Sergius is openly celebrated as the “sweet companion and lover” of St. Bacchus. Sergius and Bacchus’s close relationship has led many modern scholars to believe they were lovers. But the most compelling evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, written in New Testament Greek describes them as “erastai,” or “lovers”. In other words, they were a male homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was not only acknowledged, but it was fully accepted and celebrated by the early Christian church, which was far more tolerant than it is today.

Contrary to myth, Christianity’s concept of marriage has not been set in stone since the days of Christ, but has constantly evolved as a concept and ritual.

Prof. John Boswell3, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the “Office of Same-Sex Union” (10th and 11th century), and the “Order for Uniting Two Men” (11th and 12th century).

These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiatied in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.

Such same gender Christian sanctified unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12th and early 13th centuries, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (‘Geraldus Cambrensis’) recorded.

Same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe list in great detail some same gender ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th century rite, “Order for Solemn Same-Sex Union”, invoked St. Serge and St. Bacchus, and called on God to “vouchsafe unto these, Thy servants [N and N], the grace to love one another and to abide without hate and not be the cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God, and all Thy saints”. The ceremony concludes: “And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded”.

Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic “Office of the Same Sex Union”, uniting two men or two women, had the couple lay their right hands on the Gospel while having a crucifix placed in their left hands. After kissing the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other, after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both communion.

Records of Christian same sex unions have been discovered in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, in Istanbul and in the Sinai, covering a thousand-years from the 8th to the 18th century.

The Dominican missionary and Prior, Jacques Goar (1601-1653), includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek Orthodox prayer books, “Euchologion Sive Rituale Graecorum Complectens Ritus Et Ordines Divinae Liturgiae” (Paris, 1667).

While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, homophobic writings didn’t appear in Western Europe until the late 14th century. Even then, church-consecrated same sex unions continued to take place.

At St. John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope’s parish church) in 1578, as many as thirteen same-gender couples were joined during a high Mass and with the cooperation of the Vatican clergy, “taking communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together” according to a contemporary report. Another woman to woman union is recorded in Dalmatia in the 18th century.

Prof. Boswell’s academic study is so well researched and documented that it poses fundamental questions for both modern church leaders and heterosexual Christians about their own modern attitudes towards homosexuality.

For the Church to ignore the evidence in its own archives would be cowardly and deceptive. The evidence convincingly shows that what the modern church claims has always been its unchanging attitude towards homosexuality is, in fact, nothing of the sort.

It proves that for the last two millennia, in parish churches and cathedrals throughout Christendom, from Ireland to Istanbul and even in the heart of Rome itself, homosexual relationships were accepted as valid expressions of a [Christian] god-given love and commitment to another person, a love that could be celebrated, honored and blessed, through the Eucharist in the name of, and in the presence of, Jesus Christ.

“… in the evening the youth came to him [Jesus], wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.” —The Secret Gospel of Mark, The Other Bible, Willis Barnstone, Editor, Harper & Row, San Francisco, 1984, pp. 339-342.

Mormons have discriminated about who can marry in their Temples. Ctholics have always discriminated about who can marry and who can be a priest.

That CAtholics will not be forced to allow gays into their ceremonies just like they are not forced to allow women be priests. Have women been suing the CAtholic Church for discrimination?

It is a complete lie and distraction to think gay marriage would force the Catholic Church to change one bit.

I know it’s a waste of time, but where do you get this stuff Tim?

“The gay lobby should be exposed for what they are; a phony special interest group for the destruction of society, in which no one would benefit and a lot of people would suffer.”

The destruction of society??? Are you serious??

Is there some sort of handbook or better yet – playbook – that lists all these nonsensical arguments? I keep hearing them over and over from so many conservative sources, so obviously you guys are all drinking the same witches brew.

Shouldn’t the Catholic Church first clean up its own house before telling others how to live? How can this Church serve as a moral voice on really any issue?

Theologian defects from the church.
-”I kept having to listen to inhuman views. For example, Hitler was praised for having interned and murdered homosexuals in concentration camps. The point came when I couldn’t remain silent any longer…”
-”They talk about a supposed Jewish global conspiracy or about how to keep emancipators, freemasons and gays out of the church.”
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,730520,00.html

Pedo priest jailed in the Philippines
-”SADISTIC pedophile priest John Denham’s reign of horror at Adamstown’s St Pius X school was laid bare in a Sydney courtroom on Friday, where grown men wept and a judge passed scathing comment on the church that protected him.

Denham’s pursuit of young boys was so brazen it included calling a victim’s name over the school’s intercom system with the chilling demand that the boy “come to the priest’s private quarters”.”
http://www.cathnewsphil.com/2010/07/07/tears-cheers-as-pedophile-priest-jailed/

Vatican Bank ‘allowed clergy to act as front for Mafia’
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vatican-bank-allowed-clergy-to-act-as-front-for-mafia-2158692.html

Secretive Catholic Order Founded by Accused Pedophile Under Fire
-”"Maciel was a sexual criminal of epic proportions who gained the trust of John Paul II and created a movement that is as close to a cult as anything we’ve seen in the church,” said author Jason Berry, one of two reporters who broke the Maciel story in 1997 and who directed a 2008 documentary about the priest called “Vows of Silence.”"
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/14/secretive-catholic-order-founded-by-accused-pedophile-under-fire/

Catholic Church Child Abuse Claims Sweep Across Europe
-”The recent spread of claims into the Netherlands, Austria and Italy has analysts and churchmen wondering how deep the scandal runs, which nation will be affected next, and whether a tide of lawsuits will force European dioceses to declare bankruptcy like their American cousins.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/13/catholic-church-child-abu_n_497942.html

Thanks for the posting Wendy.

We’ll never know for certain the sexual orientation of Jesus (assuming that he existed in the first place). The bits of evidence suggesting the possibility of a gay Jesus is clearly to hot to handle for the church–it doesn’t have enough institutional honesty to even contemplate this.

Churches can say who or who does not attend their churches. The church can or not allow people to serve in their church, to have rules to their choice of lifestyle, to marry or to not marry people, to divorce or not divorce in their thoughts or practices.

NON of it makes it legal. the church can say they wont grant a divorce, but its a legal matter. they can say they wont marry someone or marry someone but its not legal till they sign the states paper.

the church is a thought, a belief, a choice, NOT A LEGAL INSTITUTION!

If Catholics want to discriminate against gay people in their own ranks, more power to them. They’re a church, and they can have their own rules. If the KKK wants to discriminate against blacks, and not allow them to join… They’re a private organization. If the Mormons want to disallow non-Mormons, gays, or (in the old days) blacks from entering their temples… That’s their business. They have that right. The Catholic church, the KKK, and the Mormons have the right to exist under the US constitution (or, whatever is left of it that we still use)… I support that.

Just as they have a right to exist, and to peaceably (?sp) assemble… The rest of have the right NOT to spend our money supporting groups that discriminate, or spread lies about other groups of people. Just remember that when you donate money to any of these groups, (even if they say it’s to help fund the school gym at a Catholic school, or a Knights of Columbus fundraiser to buy coats for children) the money you donate can be used to hurt other people.

Next time you’re approached by someone selling candy to support their school, or asking for donations to fix a roof on a church – remember that groups like the Knights of Columbus COULD have done this. Instead, they proudly donated MANY millions of dollars to restrict the rights of gay citizens and attack their families. They could have fixed a lot of church roofs, bought a lot of poor children coats, or built a lot of school gyms.

When you think about it, if you REALLY want to do good, find groups that will fit your values and not use your good faith donations to attack others.

Unless you LIKE hating other people who have probably done you no personal harm. But that’s your right, too.

If the Catholic Church ever knew that Michalangelo was a Bi-Sexual, the Sistine Ceiling would have never been done. Nor would he have been allowed to step foot in a church, let alone be commissoned to create some of the greatest works of art for the Catholic Church during his time.

The late George Carlin said it best on his CLASS CLOWN album..”I used to be an Irish Catholic. I am an American now. You grow!”

[...] Minnesota Catholics Unveil Legislative Agenda: Ban on Gay Marriage, Help for the Poor. Read more  [...]

Wow, what a bunch of godless commies.

Gosh Dennis,

Adding your deep thoughts again, thanks.

A cheap shot with no substance.

It’s quite uplifting to see that most of the comments here (apart from Tim’s) are from individuals who have found their way into the 21st century and understand that we all, each and every one of us, has the right to live his or her life and to be left alone while doing so.

This is how I live my “chosen lifestyle” on most days…

Alarm goes off. Hit snooze at least twice. Get up and make coffee and breakfast while my man (we celebrate 22 years together of Mar. 3, 2011) showers and gets ready to go to the office. Let the dog out. Eat, drink coffee and chat about the upcoming day. Send hubby off to work. I work from home so I usually: put on a load of laundry, run the dishwasher, make some calls, do some paperwork, send some e-mails, do another load of laundry, unload the dishwasher, make the bed, take the dog for a long walk to avoid paperwork and then, in the afternoon, meet clients away from the home office. I don’t cook so when my man comes home from the office he prepares dinner while I find some fun music on iTunes, play with the dog and keep him company while dinner is being made. Eat dinner. Drink wine (maybe). Watch something on t.v. or online. Go to bed.

This is what the “destructive gay lobby” has been working so hard for. To give me the freedom to try to dismantle the fabric of society while, at the same time, attempting to eek out a slice of happiness in this big, cruel work for me and my man.
I live in Canada, btw, where gay marriage has been legal since 2005. Don’t believe what NOM and NARTH (it hurt to type those!!) are telling you. Gay marriage didn’t ruin our country, nor did God send tornadoes and locusts in protest. Straight marriages were not affected. At all.

Dennis and Tim,

Not all faithful people are closed minded. More than 150 clergy from across Iowa have signed a letter of support for equal marriage rights for same-sex couples.

“The Supreme Court of Iowa recognized that equity and fairness is the starting point in our state’s constitution,” said Rev. Matt Mardis-LeCroy, Board Chairperson of Interfaith Alliance of Iowa and minister at Plymouth Congregational Church in Des Moines. “We as clergy from different faith traditions adhere to this principle and stand firmly with gay and lesbian couples to underscore the importance of marriage equality. Our traditions and practices as religious entities should never be used to exclude equal protection from anyone.”

Your belief system seems to a bit misaligned with many, many other faith traditions, including mainline Christian denominations. Perhaps you and others like you need to expand your thinking to include what Jesus spoke about – love your neighbor as well as you love yourself. Perhaps you are self-loathing; then I understand your position.

[...] prospects for marriage equality now faces a harsh anti-gay environment. The Minnesota Independent reported yesterday on the Minnesota Catholic Conference’s [...]

There are many Catholics like me, who in their hearts know what is good, yet have issues with how the patriarchy of the Church is run. They may not attend Mass on a regular basis or at all, but remain Catholics none the less. We know what is moral and immoral. We live our lives still with the values and virtues ingrained through many generations. We take the fight for Civil Rights Equality and Social Justice seriously

My issues with the Catholic Church are…..

1) The Catholic Church’s attitude towards Birth Control and Family Planning in genreal continues to be outdated. Medieval thinking for the 21st Century. Natural Family Planning takes a couple committed to planning sex by taking and tracking temperature, hormone changes to avoid conception on a daily basis. Vascetomies, Tubal Ligations, even Hysterectomies to end Child bearing is verbotten.

2) Married Clergy. The Church’s problem with not having a maried Clergy, as with Protestant demoninations, has resulted with less young men going into the Priesthood over the years, many leaving the Priesthood because of their Sexcuality issues,, Pedophilia, and other issues related to Marriage and Family.

3) The role of women in the Church has left many Catholics feeling isolated. There are Women in Clerical roles in the Lutheran and Episcopalian churches serving parishes on a variety of fronts. Their numbers continue to expand as Catholics seek other churches to be a part of, or drop out completely.

So for you, Dennis , to call us a bunch of “godless Commies”, is IGNORANT !!

@Gigi -

I’m glad you are from Canada; let’s look at how same-sex marriage has affected your land.

Last I checked the gay lobby has managed to destroy both the ‘freedom of religions’ and the ‘freedom of speech’. Pastors have been jailed, fined and run our town – religious persecution has been legalized. And just last week the courts have ruled that all ministers must perform same-sex marriage – regardless of their religious beliefs. By definition, this is a theocracy.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20110111/court-canadian-commissioners-must-wed-gay-couples/

Canada will never be the great nation that it was without a revolution or civil war to regain the freedoms they have lost.

So yes, gay marriage has destroyed Canada and continues to. The gay lobby does not want to be left alone like you suggest, they want to destroy the freedoms of the modern world and send us back to communism.

Tim – Once again, you act as if being Christian gives you a special license to be a completely immoral, hateful slug. You’re just lying through your teeth; Marriage commissioners are AGENTS OF THE GOVERNMENT, not religious ministers. I bet you were one of the people howling HOW DARE THEY!? when Muslim checkers at Target refused to check out people with bacon in their carts.

@Katie B. –

I’m am not lying Katie and you know it. The reason the commissioners are agents of the government is because they need to be so that the government can enforce its religious beliefs that are part of law – a clear theocracy. I am not being hateful, I’m just giving you the facts. This is what you are endorcing. A world without freedom.

Tim,

You clearly stated in a previous post that “the courts have ruled that all ministers must perform same-sex marriage”. In Canada are ministers considered marriage commissioners. I am not that familiar with Canadian law. Is there separation of church and state in Canada?

Here in the USA we are to have that separation. Therefore, I guess if we have an individual that is a minister and also a judge, he/she could not decline someone based on religious beliefs if performing a civil ceremony, i.e. a couple living together before marriage, etc. However, if he/she were performing a religious ceremony, they could refuse to marry them.

Tim,

Just because you have strong religious convictions, it doesn’t then follow that anything with which you disagree must also stem from religious conviction.

Take gay marriage, for example. Support for this needs no theological or religious assumption to be argued for. In fact, if you pay any attention at all to the language of the legal decisions related to gay marriage you’ll quickly note that pro gay marriage groups have no need to reference the Bible, or your god, or Jesus. The arguments are purely secular.

If you then want to argue that secular language is indeed somehow religious language, well, then you’re simply making up definitions out of thin air.

@Bobby – Tim’s lying. The job of “marriage commissioner” is specifically secular and non-religious (a quick Google of the phrase will reveal this).

“Marriage Commissioners in British Columbia are private citizens appointed under the Marriage Act to perform civil marriage ceremonies, collect legislated fees and register a marriage with the Vital Statistics Agency. Marriage Commissioners are not employees of the provincial government but hold an appointment under the Marriage Act and receive a statutory commission of $50 for each ceremony that they conduct. Marriage Commissioners cannot perform a marriage ceremony without a valid marriage licence provided to them by the couple to be married prior to the marriage ceremony.”

What this states is that a Marriage Commissioner is specifically NOT a religious minister, and the court case held that Marriage Commissioners, since they act on a state commission and NOT a religious one, must act as agents of the state, which is forbidden from discriminating on basis of sexual orientation.

Marriage parity supporters whether gay or straight are NOT attempting “RULE OF GOD” legislation or government and therefore cannot be or create a theocracy. YOU on the other hand clearly are and your arguments support that. That is THE TRUTH. Your list of talking points for the Catholic Church and other theocrats are mythical.

Theocracy is a form of government in which a state is understood as governed by immediate divine guidance especially a state ruled by clergy, or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.[1]

From the perspective of the theocratic government, “God himself is recognized as the head” of the state, [2] hence the term theocracy, from the Greek θεοκρατια “rule of God”, a term used by Josephus of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.[3] Theocratic governments enact theonomic laws (rules).

A theocracy may be monist in form, where the administrative hierarchy of the government is identical with the administrative hierarchy of the religion, or it may have two ‘arms,’ but with the state administrative hierarchy subordinate to the religious hierarchy.

Theocracy should be distinguished from other secular forms of government that have a state religion, or are merely influenced by theological or moral concepts, and monarchies held “By the Grace of God”.

@ Tim, above comment

Escaping the oppressive doctrine of The Church of England was exactly what our founders fled and adventured from, and established our secular government. We have evolved from 3/5ths of a person citizenship and is well past time to fulfill the full promise and protection of our Constitution and Bill of Rights for all this countries natural- born and tax-paying citizens. Faith is not a just excuse to discriminate in a diverse nation.

http://www.faithinamerica.org/bigotry/

@Katie –

You are lying to yourself to remain in your delusion. You can spin around all day, but the facts remain. The gay lobby has destroyed the freedoms in Canada and they are now targeting the US Constitution, the only remaining foundation of freedom.

@Wendy -

Canada laws are exactly like your definition of a theocracy, in which the government enforces laws that are religious in nature. Same-sex marriage is a moral issue, has always been and will always be and therefore it is a personal and religious issue. The establishment of religious beliefs by a government is the creation of a theocracy. This is the reason the US was founded, to accept religious persecution – the same religious persecution that the gay lobby wants to bring back.

@Tim –

“Same-sex marriage is a moral issue, has always been and will always be and therefore it is a personal and religious issue. ”

Since it is a religious issue, it follows that the government has no business banning it.

There are many people in this country who have a theological objection to the remarriage of divorced people, or to marriages between people of different races. Should we ban those marriages because of the moral and theological implications raised by them?

@Tim

“Same-sex marriage is a moral issue, has always been and will always be and therefore it is a personal and religious issue. ”

I’m afraid your moral compass needs recalibration. It seems to have been pointing down instead of up. Try a dose of love in place of judgmental furry – you’ll feel better, sleep better, and be on the side of angles. Love is a marvelous elixir.

Tim,

One thing that greatly harms your credibility is your refusal to qualify your statements, which makes you appear intellectually dishonest. Take this statement of yours:

“The gay lobby has destroyed the freedoms in Canada and they are now targeting the US Constitution, the only remaining foundation of freedom.”

If we took this at face value, then using language that elaborates on the (overly) general statement you make in the first part of your sentence, you’re claiming that ALL freedoms have been destroyed. And ALL would include, well, ALL: the right to travel and freely associate, to buy food, raise food, speak in any manner, own property, work, drive a car, etc., etc.

But this is clearly not what has happened. What has happened is that a subset of Christianity is no longer being allowed, in very narrow contexts, to discriminate against people they disapprove of. That’s it. Canada has decided that religious freedom is not an absolute when it conflicts with other freedoms. This should hardly be controversial. Do you have the freedom to kill your children if your god tells you to do so?

So, one of the reasons people accuse you of lying is that you do things like the above–you grossly exaggerate (yes, lie) to make a point, but in doing so you don’t do yourself any favors.

My question is whether you yourself know that you’re doing this or is this kind of petty dishonesty habitual for you and therefore something you don’t completely realize you’re doing.

@Tim – When addressing Katie’s response, you didn’t point out her comment about Muslims refusing to touch pork. The issue in Canada with the marriage commissioners refusing to marry a gay couple would be the same as if a Muslim working at Subway refuses to put bacon on my sub. Would you disagree? If so, explain how.

Speaking of the Catholic Church and issues of sexuality, did you all see this article?

“Vatican letter told Ireland’s Catholic bishops not to report child abuse
Policy to tell police about priest suspects was vetoed, as lawyers say proof at last of cover-up by papacy”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/18/vatican-irish-bishops-child-abuse

“The letter is of huge international significance,” said Colm O’Gorman, director of the Irish section of Amnesty International. “It shows that the Vatican’s intention is to prevent reporting of abuse to criminal authorities. And if that instruction applied here [in Ireland], it applied everywhere.”

Joelle Casteix, a director of the US advocacy group Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, described it as “the smoking gun we’ve been looking for.” It was certain to be cited by lawyers acting for victims seeking to pin responsibility directly on Rome, not the dioceses.”

I’m sure the Klan felt like they were being picked on when they were told they couldn’t do a few things according to their beliefs too. Your privileged view of how things should be to keep you feeling special is irrelevant to how this country treats it’s minority citizens. YOU do not have the right to deprive others of the promise and protection of the Constitution or their liberty and pursuit of happiness. The Catholic Church certainly has NO business in our govt. They have a pedophilia problem and cover-up of a grand scale to handle, so go make restitutions and HANDLE IT! The Catholic Corporation is no gleaming pillar of morality. Dehumanizing gay people to keep the spotlight off the real pedophiles is equally revolting.

And since the Catholic Church is now “out” about its dealing in public policy and policy, it is high time their tax-exempt status be retracted for breach. It can be put against our debt and help all Minnesotans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Fascists:_The_Christian_Right_and_the_War_on_America

Pretty simple equation. Church has political official agenda=no more taxes for church.

“The government of the US is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.”
George Washington

Amen

[...] The Minnesota Catholic Conference released legislative recommendations in January that supported allowing medical workers to opt out of providing birth control prescriptions. [...]