Was Pastor Campbell’s prayer on the Senate floor legal?

The religious right just keeps whittling away at the separation of church and state until, what? The state IS a church? They tried that in Iran and it isn’t working very well. Fundamentalists, will you please keep your voodoo mumbo jumbo out of government activities? Superstition, no matter how rampant, is no basis for public policy or legislation.

Praise Jebus, God hates Democracy, Amen.

Its time that the leaders of today, represent the masses, not the few. The self indulgence of offering a denominational prayer is down right disgraceful to all other beliefs and personal relationship with one owns faith.

If people need to live in a religious state, I ask you to look at the religious based countries. I am positive they wont like what they see.

But the MN Taliban (GOP) is in control and they will simply brush off all this as nonsense and no one will really challenge them.

I recall a supposedly bipartisan Tea Party event held in Watertown, Minnesota, last summer, where they forgot to invite the democrats. A minister from Howard Lake delivered a rather lengthy, Jesus prayer, that I found offensive as a Christian. The entire event was filled will misinformation and manipulations.

Yes, it was illegal! But when did that ever stop a Republican? Most of them are Christian Dominionists to start with. …anything for the cause! At some point the citizenry will throw the bums out — at least that’s what I’m praying for!

Only the elimination of all conservative Christians will allow all Americans to be free and the world to no longer have to live in fear of the U.S.A.’s imperialist, terrorist holy war. The conservative ideology has never helped mankind in any way, it has not only never helped mankind in anyway, it has oppressed, murdered, raped and killed all those in it’s way to gain power. History shows us this. Fact shows us this. James Madison, the “Father of the U.S. Constitution”, along with many founders of this country, regardless of their religious or non-religious affiliations, knew keeping politics and religion separate not only preserves each, but helps them flourish: “The number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church and the State.”

The solution to this is NO prayer whatsoever on the Senate floor. Is that asking too much? Absolutely not. Let’s remove it entirely. If believers need to be led in prayer – let them do so in the privacy of their own offices. Anything else is for show and not worthy of admiration.

“…the Dalai Lama spoke before the Minnesota Legislature. While the Tibetan Buddhist leader did not give an invocation, his mere presence as a religious leader riled conservative Christians.”

Of course. The leadership of the religious right is nothing if not arrogant and self-entitled. As is typical with hardline religious zealots, they believe they have special access to hidden supernatural truths, are privileged in the eyes of their deity, and expect an elevated social standing to go with it.

I agree that the solution is no prayer whatsoever. But if the religious right wants to play the ecumenical fairness card and claim everyone is welcome to give an invocation, then let’s take them up on the offer, but insist that atheists, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, pagan, Wiccans, Satanists, and New Age erotic spirituality practitioners all get a chance too.

@Eric- Well put. Now, about these New Age erotic spirituality practitioners you speak of…

Praise Jebus, God hates a sense of humor, Amen.

I. I think christian fundamentalists are enemies of the state

Prayers like this one have been spoken in the Senate forever. This is nothing new. What is new is a growing hatred for God and anyone that believes in him.

Andy is clearly attacking God out of his hatred for God’s condemnation of homosexuality and because there is no resting place for the soul apart from God. He will continue in his anguish against God forever unless he reconciles with Him.
“They plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them;” – Psalm 37:12

Andy tries to deny his hatred for God by saying that he is an atheist and therefore does not believe in God, but the believers in Christ did not write the scriptures, God did. They only follow what God wrote. They are not the ultimate source of Andy’s hatred, God is. Jesus told us this will happen,
“And everyone will hate you because you are my followers.” – Matthew 10:22

The historical evident of Jesus Christ is undeniable, yet Andy refuses to look at the evidence and remain in a state of denial because he what rather believe God does not exist that deal with the fact that he does. His attack of the teachings and followers of Jesus Christ testifies that atheism is but a shallow and unstable resting place for the soul that is unable to fill the emptiness that results from deigning God.

God is not out to get Andy, but to restore and reconcile their relationship.

@Tim-

First, Andy Birkey wrote the story but HE is not the story. You shouldn’t try to intimidate people for reporting news that threatens your misguided politico-religious base. If your faith is so fragile as to be threatened by verifiable facts then the weakness lies in your faith not the facts. Either way hate the message not the messenger.

Praise Jebus, God hates freedom of the press, Amen.

Judge not lest ye be judged, Tim. And let he without sin cast the first stone, yadda yadda.

@Carl -

In this case, Andy is the story, because there is no story other than Andy making a story out of the same prayers that have been going on forever.

I do not hate Andy. I feel bad for the pain he is in and I wish I could reach him and you with the truth about the goodness of God. God has so much more for you guys, both in this life and the next, more than you will ever find on your own.

Tim, these prayers have not “been going on forever.” WHIle there have always been prayers in the Legislature (why? But that’s another matter), they have always been non-denominational. Pastor Campbell’s paryer is controversial because it, unlike other prayers, invoked the name of Jesus. Specifically Christian prayers should not be allowed.

BTW, Tim, as a good Christian yourself, how do you reconcile legislative prayer sessions with Matthew 6:5-6? Just wondering.

@Tim,

Rep. Bonoff says such Jesus dense prayers haven’t been “going on forever” on the Senate floor. I suspect she’s spent more time there than you. So who’s not telling the truth? And why?

If your superstitious mumbo jumbo works for you that’s great but imposing these fairy tales on the majority that disagrees with you threatens to undermine the very democratic rights that protect you. Careful what you pray for.

Praise Jebus, God hates empirical evidence, Amen.

@Tim

What you say is true for the special interest groups of the Fundies. There are millions if not a billion of Christians that do not agree with you.

There are all the other religions as well that are also no represented in a prayer like this.

Your Prejudice against the Jews and Muslims Buddhists and all the other major religions has been noted once again.

Tim wrote:

“The historical evident of Jesus Christ is undeniable, yet Andy refuses to look at the evidence and remain in a state of denial because he what rather believe God does not exist that deal with the fact that he does.”

If your literature base only includes texts from fundamentalist and conservative sources, then of course the “evidence” seems plain and obvious. This is called selection bias.

If you actually treat the stories of Jesus as a critical empirical historian, these ludicrous theological certainties succumb to some level of doubt. The New Testament is not a history text like we understand history today.

Further, I realize that for you Tim, all of this religious belief exists in a logically undifferentiated clump. But for those of us who wish to use reason, things aren’t so simple.

-For instance, assuming Jesus existed it doesn’t logically follow that any god does.
-Or, it’s possible some god exists but Jesus never did (there are good arguments for Jesus’ non-existence in history, but I remain agnostic on the question pending further research).
-Or, it’s possible Jesus and some god exists, but very little if any of xtianity’s theology is true–the trinity, claims of miraculous interventions in human affairs, etc.
-Or, it’s possible Jesus and the Christian god exist (or multiple gods), and there’s no afterlife, no life after death–a separate claim that requires a separate argument.

Entertaining doubts and rational objections are not what fundamentalist and evangelical faith is about. They want belief, faith and comfort, not doubt and unease. They want the balm of certainties, not the rigors of skepticism. They recoil from the burden of thinking, and the terror of facing a world in which the ground might shift beneath them. They’re taught to attach their egos to their alleged truths, thereby inoculating them against further rational reflection.

Tim also wrote:

“God has so much more for you guys, both in this life and the next, more than you will ever find on your own.”

Note the cosmic arrogance of this view–Tim knows what’s on the mind of the creator of the universe. It’s heard so often in conservative Christian discourse it’s easy to forget what a ‘the-universe-is-centered-on-me’ narcissistic and dishonest con this is.

Which ties in to a theme of this article–prayer. What is this thing, prayer? It’s the same narcissistic delusion, the belief that you’re engaging in telepathic communication with the creator of the universe (I well understand the other functions of prayer–I’m merely focusing on the element that does most violence to an empirical view of reality).

How ’bout we give reality and rational reflection a try for once? Is this too much to ask of politicians in the state of MN?

Randy,

Praying in ‘Jesus name’ has been going on forever, just as other religious leaders pray in the name of their gods. But why is a prayer in ‘Jesus’ name more offensive than any other religions gods? Why do you say “Christian prayers should not be allowed.”? Why does the name of Jesus offend the entire world? Consider this question.

Isolating the name of Jesus as the only god that should not be allowed in prayer is religious persecution and discrimination. The reason is because of the verse I quoted before. This targeted persecution of the followers of Christ proves that scripture is true and the world hates Jesus and his followers to this very day.

Regarding Matthew 6:5-6, if you read the passage you will see that Jesus is saying do not pray a personal prayer to God out of motivation to have everyone hear you pray just so they might think you are a good person for praying, because that is what people were doing at the time. They were not praying in order to be heard by God but to be heard by the people. If you want to have a personal conversation with God, do it in your room so that you can listen to what God has to share with you. The prayers in the Senate are not personal conversations between God and the pastor. They are corporate prayers asking the Lord for wisdom and guidance for the entire body, in which many people join in agreement.

marie –

The essence of Christianity is Jesus Christ. Therefore making your statement “There are millions if not a billion of Christians that do not agree with you.” completely nonsense.

So asserting fiction as fact is not only protected but to be sanctioned. There goes the enlightenment to be replaced with the dark ages where nothing is true unless a priest, pastor, rabbi or imam says so. And certainly not in the company of all four.

Praise Jebus, God hates religious tolerance, Amen.

So my demon and I were talking about this article. We both agreed that prayer is not needed to legislate.

My demon also said he would like to get together with Tim and his god for a game of cards.

I am sorry but I cannot take your conversation seriously.

Tim, it’s the context. Prayers to Jesus or any specific deitiy are not done. The Legeislature is not a Christian body.

“Jesus is saying do not pray a personal prayer to God out of motivation to have everyone hear you pray just so they might think you are a good person for praying, because that is what people were doing at the time. ” They still are. You can’t tell me that a “WWJD” t-shirt is not meant as an advertisement.

Prayers in the Legislature are meant to be heard by the people. If the members were interested only in divine guidance they would be doing that privately, not as a well-oublicized ritual.

Tim,

Would you agree or disagree with the following message being said before the legislature:

“Let’s take a moment to reflect on the role that skepticism, reason and scientific evidence plays in filtering out the myriad dubious claims to truth that dominate and oppress our society. For instance, angels, miracle stories like virgin births and rising from the dead, gods, alleged holy texts, the allegedly existing realm of the supernatural, survival of death, and the like. Let’s all work to ensure that higher levels of critical thinking become the norm in all areas of society.”

Why or why not?

Eric, FWIW I’d bow my head in silence to that statement. Good compromise.
To anyone, and on a related subject, is the effective range of a Christian prayer so limited as to require detonation in the same room as it’s target? Or is maybe the prayer’s aim, in Pastor Campbell’s situation, limited by some age related physical ability? Maybe a younger Pastor’s prayer could reach the House floor from, say, the parking lot. Or the use of a prayer with a wider dispersal pattern but pitched from the hallway could have the same effect. Either might resolve the issue. You know… quality over frequency and all that. Just my 2 cents.

Praise Jebus, God hates impotency, Amen.

The States are a disgrace! They should ignore every Supreme Court decision which outlaws prayer is Jesus Christ’s name.

I can see the libs putting George Washington and the other Christians in jail:

[Calling for a day of thanksgiving and prayer for the victory at Saratoga] “Forasmuch as it is the indispensable duty of all men to adore the superintending providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with gratitude their obligation to him for benefits received . . . [to offer] humble and earnest supplication that it may please God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot [our sins] out of remembrance . . . and to prosper the means of religion for the promotion and enlargement of that kingdom which consisteth ‘in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.’”

-Continental Congress. November 1, 1777 national Thanksgiving Day Proclamation, Journals of the Continental Congress at Vol 18, p. 950.

@ourfoundingtruth-

Unfortunately it is your belief that Christians are above the law that threatens the very nation that would protect your religious freedom. BTW- George Washington, like many of our nation’s founders, was a Deist and certainly didn’t believe in resurrection. He would probably be denounced and rebuked today by the very extremists that misuse his name to promote a religious state.

And what liberals want Christians jailed? Please note the story on this very website describing conservative’s attempts to jail embryonic stem cell researchers. The manipulative and misleading rhetoric from people who claim to worship God who IS Love is a national embarrassment.

Praise Jebus, God hates books with historic accuracy, Amen.

For those who argue that effective prayers must be offered explicitly “In the name of Jesus Christ our Lord”…a simple suggestion. You can make ANY prayer fit your requirements by simply adding, for yourself, at the end: Amen, I offer this prayer in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord”, or whatever words you need to make you feel like it is acceptable to G-d. You might plan on an interesting discussion with G-d as to what he/she “hears” at some time, but that is a discussion for another day.

Why do you all demand that all public prayers fit your requirements? Christians in this country are the majority; Christian faith is enmeshed in ways you probably haven’t thought of. The non-Christians among us have been having to adapt prayer to fit their beliefs for centuries. Why is it so difficult for us to do the same?

I have given literally hundreds of prayers (invocations, benedictions, daily prayer aboard ship just before Taps, etc.). It is not necessary to preach a powerful prayer that many can say AMEN to, even without ending it in the name of Jesus. PS: If you go through Christian prayer books, you will find many prayers that do not state specifically “I pray in the name … , and yet are profoundly Christian in the issues they address. Prayer is a matter of intent at least as much as it is format. If you need to add your own “stamp of approval” fine, i won’t stop you. Please don’t expect others to put up with us in this regard forever.

Pr Chris

When government embraces, endorses, supports, recognizes, indulges, or honors one religion over others, it is a signal that true religious freedom does not exist in that country.

You want to take freedom away from USA by not allowing us to pray in JESUS CHRIST’s name.Lenin and stalin did this.They killed millions of christians for their faith.FREE DOM OF SPEACH is what this country is based on and is someone is offended let him leave while the prayer last and not listen.

@American
First of all I like your name. I often use that as well being one myself.

Freedom of speech on your own time not when I have to sit through a meeting being required to be there. Do it on the street corner or any place else you like.