Klobuchar missing from DOMA repeal bill

Klonuchar & Kohl need to get behind DOMA repeal now or they will find themselves in an indefensible position which will end their political careers.

I emailed her to say get out there and represent who voted for her!

Come on Amy!! What are you thinking!?! Let’s go here! Get on board – NOW!!!

I too sent Amy an eform encouraging her to do all she can to help repeal the federal DOMA as well as to support suitable legislation that would recognize marriages only – and not the many variations of “marriage-lite” such as civil unions, domestic partnerships, reciprocal benefits and so on so as to put further pressure on the states to standardize and recognize marriages whether it be opposite-sex or same-sex, whether it is performed in-state, out-of-state and even out-of-country.

I called her office today at 202-244-3244 and asked her office to tell her to vote this bill down. It’s unfair to the LBGT community and should be ended.

If Franken can sponsor this while facing a much tougher reelection, I don’t see what Klobuchar is waiting for.

Do they really want to stand out like this? What the hell is wrong with these people? What is there to think about?
DOMA is unconstitutional…..what’s the delay in deciding that you should be on the side of making history and repealing this unjust law.

My guess is she has abandoned any support she may have had for the GLBT community. A search of her website makes no mention of any GLBT issues.

I agree that this is a historical moment for LGBT civil rights, and A-Klo will regret being on the wrong side of history!

No Senator for Minnesota can be wishy-washy on GLBT issues. Amy, you’re either for Justice or Ignorance. Which will it be?

Praise Jebus, God hates brave leadership, Amen.

THE WONDERING, WAITING, WISHING, AND UNCERTAINTY IS PURE AGONY!!! TO ALL THOSE IN WASHINGTON….TAKE A MOMENT AND IMAGINE YOURSELVES LIVING IN “OUR SHOES”….THIS COUNTRY IS SOOOOOOO FAR BEHING IN THE MATTERS OF “LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL”!!!

….SO FAR BEHIND IN THE MATTERS OF “LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL”!!!

Perhaps Amy is beginning to realize the damage that would results from such a thing and the rights of many that would be violated as states would be forces to accept the immoral position of other states.

Or perhaps Amy is looking at the destruction to the economy that would result, as the family further deteriorated. Either way, this would not be good for MN or any state to force an immoral position on the states at a federal level. The implications would be very damaging to the culture, religious rights, children’s rights, school rights, the economy, liberty, etc.

Once again, the gay-lobby does not care about anyone else; they just want to shove their ideas down everyone’s throat, regardless of the consequences, as they hide behind twisted language like equal rights. They don’t want equal rights; they want to run over everyone’s rights using the government to force the nation into a theocracy by making their immoral position law. They are the bully in the room and the bully needs to be stopped.

Tim,
You are a repeat of everything said during the civil rights movement.

A repeat of everything said during the push for women to vote.

You are a repeat of everything the south said to keep slavery intact.

Please learn from the mistakes of the past and open your heart to your brothers and sisters in the LGBT.

Tim,

Paranoia is no basis for public policy. And you might want to look up the meaning of “theocracy.”

Praise Jebus, God hates dictionaries, Amen.

Call Amy today and let’s defend the right of everyone to marry!

http://www.outfront.org/takeaction/doma

Paul V –

There is a big difference between gay-marriage and the civil rights movement or the right for woman to vote. They are not comparable. Perhaps the most important difference is that the civil rights movement and the right for woman to vote was support by God in the scriptures and therefore the blessing of God was evident in the results.

But in this case, we are directly disregarding the scriptures clear teaching of what is right and what is wrong and therefore will reap a destructive result.

“See, I set before you today life and prosperity or death and destruction. For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws.” – Deuteronomy 30:15

We should fear the Lord, not just because he is the Lord and supernatural, but because our actions have natural consequences to our society.

“But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD’s love is with those who fear him” – Psalm 103:17-19

“Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones. ” – Proverbs 3:7-8

The health of our families, communities, economy and society at large is directly tied to our morality.

“Praise the LORD. Blessed are those who fear the LORD, who find great delight in his commands. Their children will be mighty in the land; the generation of the upright will be blessed.” – Psalm 112:1

The fear of the Lord adds length to one’s life, “”The fear of the LORD adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short.” – Proverbs 10:27

The statistics on sexuality and the deterioration of the family testify that these scriptures are indeed the result of our actions. If we want to increase the success of the next generation, we need to follow the Lords commands. Gay-marriage is not anyones right. It would destroy the nation, just as it is destroying Canada and the UK as they have already begun to reap the results.

Wow. Tim doesn’t even try to hide his anti-democracy agenda. Does C-Street know he’s gone public?

Praise Jebus, God hates rational people, Amen.

I did not even complete reading Tim because we have a fundemental difference in your first paragraph.

I find your defective in thinking that it isn’t the same because it is.

If LBGT were treated the same it would help stop the deteriation of the family because there would be more families.

Paul V –

In what way do you think the civil rights movement or the right for woman to vote has any comparison to gay-marriage?

There is no evidence that all gays are born with the same skin color or any other biological similarities – and there are thousands of x-gays and zero x-blacks.

Sexual feelings are constantly changing, yet whatever you’re sexually attracted to at the time, you can vote.

Society does not allow incest or pedophilia in order to protect the rights of children and society at large from the harmful results, why not homosexuality?

This line of discussion is getting ridiculous. There may be thousands of “x-gays” but there are millions, MILLIONS, of current gays. Believe it or not, some of them are raising children and almost all of these families (that’s what they are) are not getting equal protection as guaranteed by the constitution. Tim, do you know the constitution is? It’s that paper that protects people like me from people like you. Homosexuality is not a choice, it’s latent.

Tim, You are the most screwed-up person I have ever run across. What’s in the water you drink? …it’s got to be an hallucinogen. Sheeesh, you’re a mess!

Sen Klobuchar has been consistent in not being a supporter or leader on any legislation that treats GLBT Americans equally. She continues to fail and play both sides of the fence. Her hypocrisy is stunning as she solicites our community with no sense of shame or guilt. It’s painful. Folks need to organize now to send a Representative to Congress that we can be proud of.

Per a tweet I received, State Senator Scott Dibble spoke with Senator Klobuchar’s staff and told him she will vote FOR the repeal of DOMA.

What’s in the water Tim drinks?

Cold, naked Fear, mostly, lubricated and fed with some really thick, smothering, highly authoritarian ignorance.

Somewhat contagious when allowed to fester in dark places; should never be allowed near impressionable children.

Again, Tim – shut it. People, please do not feed this troll.

Thanks, Cathy, for sharing that tweet. There are times when it seems I as a gay Minnesotan feel not so sure about Amy, but she has yet to prove herself other than being level-headed, fair and having substance. I’d rather count on that and actual, meaningful accomplishments than on “sound bytes.”

Lane –

I’m not trying to take anything away from you, but to save your life.
We are not what we have done, but what we have overcome.

Tim-

You haven’t yet overcome the belief in a mythical religion with no legitimate basis in a modern rational world; the imposition of which does threaten to steal our freedom through a state sanctioned religion. That makes you and your fellow fundamentalists a direct threat to Democracy and freedom. You are to Christianity what the Taliban is to Islam. That you can’t see that indicates how brainwashed you are. Come join us in the light of reason. You can keep your beliefs, just don’t try to impose them on us.

Praise Jebus, God hates freewill, Amen.

People just cannot handle the bible; it is so dangerous in practically everybody’s hands.

@Cathy –

It’s not the bible that is dangerous. People are dangerous, especially when they discard the wisdom found in the bible.

@Carl –
I’m all for democracy, the DOMA was passed in our democracy just as Prop 8 was. It is the gay-lobby that does not like democracy when it is against them and loves it when it is for them.

Rational reasoning does not come from nothing, just as we did not come from nothing, but from an understanding of the reality of God. And freedom does not come from mob rule or democracy or a dictatorship, but from the acknowledgment of the existence of objective and unchanging morality. Without an objective and unchanging morality, freedom cannot be defended against mob rule which will result in the creation of immoral and unjust laws that will create inequality and discrimination.

This is why Christianity is critical to civilization. Because it provides the moral foundation that is above man that is defendable against mob rule, dictatorships and any other form of bullying the government into controlling the people that threaten to legalize immoral and unjust laws against humanity.

Christianity is not a threat to freedom and democracy, but the only true foundation that freedom and democracy can be supported by. This is why our nation became the greatest in history.

Regarding your statement; “You can keep your beliefs, just don’t try to impose them on us.” – I wish that was the case, but the gay-lobby is busy doing everything they can to sensor and vilify and block anyone with a different belief. Just a few days ago they were able to get Apple to remove the iphone app for Exodus International – the leading support group for x-gays that want to leave the lifestyle. It is a lie to think that the gay-lobby wants anyone to ‘keep their beliefs’. They are actively intolerant of free speech and working at removing the freedom of religion – both freedoms are fundamental to a free society. It is the gay-lobby that is a threat to freedom and democracy, because there is no defendable reason for an immoral society to remain free. Everyone, including the gay-lobby, will suffer from the lost of freedom and inequality that the gay-lobby is trying to institute.

@Tim-

I think your religion is false and your religious texts so full of fantasy and contradiction that adherents can always find justification for their bigotry which is why the founders established a separation of church and state. Theocracy defeats Democracy through zealotry and fear. Democracy defeats Theocracy through free and open debate.

Besides, how can the “state” be founded on that from which it must be separate? You can’t have both.

Praise Jebus, God hates freedom, Amen.

[...] here titled “We are two votes shy of repealing DOMA in the Senate Judiciary Committee”. Here’s the Minnesota Independent excerpt (bolding [...]

@Carl –

The state was founded on the biblical understanding of the condition of humanity (fallen, sinful and evil) and the unchanging definition of morality coding into our laws, with the notion the freedom was given to humanity by God (our creator) and freedom cannot be governed and we must be allowed the freedom of religion. The separation of church-and-state was not a separation of biblical wisdom from state, but that the state would not endorse a religion – because freedom is an inalienable God given right.

The reason the power of the state was separated in to three branches with checks and balances was based on the fact that humanity is fallen, sinful and evil, as defined in scripture. The foundation of our laws and legal system were originally based on the Ten Commandments, along with civil laws about marriage, children and private property.

You do not realize that the very religion that you curse is the cornerstone of the success of the nation we live in.

Regarding your ideas, “Theocracy defeats Democracy through zealotry and fear. Democracy defeats Theocracy through free and open debate.”

Perhaps you believe that DOMA are based on Christianity and therefore form a theocracy that discriminates against you. But it that were true, then wouldn’t gay-marriage just to be creation of another theocracy in which your ideas or morality before the law of the land? What good would it do to replace one theocracy with another? We would just move from discriminating some people to discriminating others? This is what Canada and the UK has recently discovered. Gay-marriage creates a theocracy by making a moral position law and the state is obligated to enforce on everyone.

An immoral society cannot be free, because it has nothing to defend itself from mob rule. And the loss of freedom leads directly to economic collapse, because private property is critical to economic development and private property does not exist when freedom of religion and speech are taken away, because you can only own your land, business, etc. if you comply to the censorship of the law – which directly criminalizes anyone that does not agree to the moral position of gay-marriage. We are headed for a national collapse unless traditional marriage is defended.

@Tim-

Your argument only holds together if one assumes your religious tenets which I don’t. I don’t believe in a god that punishes innocent people for the actions of others and I certainly don’t accept the prosperity gospel as marketed by modern religious fundamentalism. Ultimately one must fail, either evangelical religions or Democracy. Please don’t destroy the freedoms of others to preserve your mythology.

Praise Jebus, God hates freedom of religion, Amen.

@Carl –

In a few sentences you managed to mention the two most common things that keep people from believing in God, justice and freedom.

Regarding justice, your beef with God is that he is not just because he “punishes innocent people for the actions of others”. Justice is an interesting topic because it’s easy to see the results of evil all around us and question how God could allow these things to happen. But blaming God is for the injustice is irrational.

Regarding freedom, sometimes people think that freedom can be found apart from God and his commands. But what you are really saying is similar to a child who thinks that freedom can be found apart from his parent’s rules not to play on the road, but when the child exercises that freedom the child dies. The rules of God were not created to oppress us, but to protect us. Following Gods rules results in a longer life, with real freedom.

@Carl –

I believe I found something we can agree on, and that is the problem with Christianity.

The problem with Christianity is that it is too easy to pervert and use it to take advantage of people for personal gain, like the modern day televangelist that trick people into giving them money to sell them blessings. What a shame.

Jesus acknowledged that this was a major problem. He warned us over and over about false teachers, false prophets and told us they will mislead a great number of people. And to make matters worse, Jesus said false teachers would increase as we approach the end times. The increase in false teachers has resulted in an increase in the number of people that are led away from believing in the true story.

As Christianity loses credibility, because of the increase in false teachers that pervert the gospel, it will continue to become more and more difficult for people who seek to find the true story. The funny thing is that scripture predicted this would happen and fewer and fewer people would find the truth in this generation. Scripture even predicts that this would begin to happen with the rebirth of the nation of Israel which was in 1948.

But because this has been predicted by scripture over 2000 years ago, it has the opposite effect on the real believers. For those of us that are watching this unfold just as predicted, it adds credibility to the story and testifies to the world that the story is true – from beginning to end. Just as this is causing many that were pretending to believe to turn away and the unrighteous to turn further from God to follow the crowd, the believers who are watching the current events and reading the scriptures are strengthened in faith and emboldened by the reality of the story as the evident is all around us, strengthening the credibility of the story and the promises of Jesus Christ.

Regarding your premise, “Ultimately one must fail, either evangelical religions or Democracy”. First of all religion is part of humanity and will never cease, because of the reality of God. Even scripture tells us in the end times, the religions of the world will be united rather than abolished. The faith based system of modern atheists called secular humanism is nothing short of another religion, in which they worship human leaders as gods (like Obama).

And again, scripture predicts this would be the result of the wisdom of humanity. Everything humanity has done and will do is already predicted in the scriptures. Democracy has already partially failed, because it only works with a moral people and as the culture moves away from morality, democracy is failing as can be seen in how divided the nation has become and how the special interest groups have taken control. Religion is already ruling, the question is which religion. Most religions that are ruling today are not based on God’s laws, and therefore are merciless and cannot support freedom. This is what scripture calls ‘lawlessness’. We are living in the age of lawlessness.

@Tim-

I believe God is a figment of your imagination. And your entire argument, once again, assumes a Judeo-Christian premise which I reject. This is where we will forever diverge unless you find in yourself the courage to allow others to live outside your fiction based ethos.

And we will find no resolution in this debate until you accept that others must be free to act legally and yet outside of your particular and peculiar interpretations of the Hebrew and Christian Bibles. Otherwise you’re advocating for the establishment of a religious state. I know acceptance of this basic American value is not allowed in many conservative Christian churches but one political system must prevail, Theocracy or Democracy. You can’t claim to be a champion of that which you would tacitly destroy.

Praise Jebus, God hates Democracy, Amen

Darn server delay. I would have preferred read your last post before my last comment. Yes, I agree that Christianity in particular and religions in general can be used to serve self-interests rather than the soul. Televangelists are one example, Al Qaeda being an extreme example and, I think, C-Street yet another. We have agreement there.

But I think a more dangerous vein in religious fundamentalism is the assumption that God may punish an entire nation for the behavior of its citizens no matter what proportion. This belief has motivated as much oppression and bizarre forms of social control as fascism and communism by creating an anxiety among the religious right concerning their neighbors that, I think, permits the violation of civil liberties “for the greater good.” Just my thoughts.

Praise Jebus, God hates civil rights, Amen.

@Carl –

In response to your first comment, you are just as religious as I am. We may serve different gods, but we are both religious.

You may deny the existence of God, but only by putting a tremendous amount of faith into your ideas of what is right and wrong. The foundation of your morality is your god – be it yourself or someone else or the entire collection of humanity. The case could even be made that you have much more faith then I do, because it takes a tremendous amount of faith to overlook the world we live in and the love we have for each other, to believe in anything but the rational explanation of God that the evidence reveals.

Your faith in your belief to determine what is right and wrong prove that you believe someone has the ability to determine these things which only a god could determine. The only way to say that you don’t believe in god and to be honest with yourself is to say that it is impossible to determine what is right and wrong – and if that were the case than you couldn’t judge anyone or say that my morality was wrong and therefore you would not be here arguing for your morality. Therefore the fact that you are here and you have ideas of what is right and wrong, means that you believe in god. And it is your god that I am worried about.

I am not advocated for the establishment of a religious state – in which all people would be forced to worship the god of the state and churches would be controlled by the states. What I am saying is that gay-marriage would do just that. It creates a theocracy in which the moral position of the gay-lobby becomes the law of the state. This would force everyone to worship their god by punishment of discrimination lawsuits (which has already happen in Canada and the UK) and all churches would become controlled by the state (as they have in Canada and the UK) and forced to endorse the moral positions of the state religion.

Defending traditional marriage, such as the DOMA, does not do these things.

@Tim,

Zealotry is typified by condescension and paranoia. Unfortunately it also stifles debate. Good luck. May Democracy prevail.

Praise Jebus, God hates the enlightenment, Amen.

I phoned Sen. Klobuchar’s office earlier this week and told her aide that I felt it was irresponsible for her to miss this vote. WE NEED SEN. KLOBUCHAR TO VOTE AGAINST ANY LEGISLATION THAT IS MOTIVATED BY HATE OR GREED! Just that simple. I will never stand for an American that is ruled by bigots or pigs.

@Carl –

I wish you were correct, and I was just paranoid. But these things have already happen in Canada and the UK. The facts are in and gay-marriage creates a theocracy that destroys the freedoms that are critical for democracy.

Showing you the facts does not stifle debate, but creates the debate. It is the gay-lobby that continues to censor the debate. We are now seeing ‘homo-fascism’ as the gay-lobby continues to target businesses like Apple to censor iphone apps that do not support their cause. The attack on the freedom of speech is undeniable.

@RexInMinn –

The DOMA is not motivated by hate or greed. It is motivated by freedom. Freedoms that are worth protecting, because they are critical to the success of our nation.

The facts are in and gay-marriage creates a theocracy that destroys the freedoms that are critical for democracy.

Tim: Do you know what “theocracy” means?

Paul:

No, he doesn’t. Tim has been repeatedly informed, by everyone but Morbo, that LANGUAGE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY, and still he persists. His favorite tactic is to portray gay people as having a “religion” of gayness, so he can insist that his first amendment rights are being trampled by having his straight privilege slightly infringed – say, by having it legally recognized that gay people form lasting relationships that deserve the same legal rights as anyone else’s lasting relationships, or by having it legally recognized that trans people’s neurologically-based gender is the accurate one, not the gender declared by a doctor at birth. The First Amendment is religion-neutral. It is not, despite the claims of hate group spokesman Bryan Fischer, an endorsement of Christianity – or of ANY religion.

Tim shows a decided lack of compassion for anyone who isn’t exactly like himself, and I find it hilarious that he actually seems to think that the Christian scriptures condemn slavery (they don’t), or are for women’s rights or African-American civil rights (they aren’t). Those changes in society were forced by people pursuing what was right, and later accepted by religious authorities who decided after the fact that if you look at the scriptures just so, it supports the point of view that society has already decided.

Same-sex marriage is in an interesting spot in England because the Church of England is *legally required* to marry *any* English citizens who wish to be married by it. It is one of the tradeoffs that it makes for being the state religion. So if/when same-sex marriage is legalized in England, the CoE *will* actually have to perform them, because of the specific terms of its charter under the Crown.

Currently, the United Kingdom has “civil unions” for gay citizens, which in the UK (not so in the US) convey all the rights and privileges of marriage EXCEPT FOR the right to be married by the Church of England.

On a deeper level, I think Tim is ranting because he realizes (though does not of course recognize) that his side has lost the battle. LGBT people will continue to fight for and win full legal and social equality, and those who think like him will sooner or later change their minds or die off.

@Paul –

I think you are on to something.

If you could change the meaning of theocracy, perhaps you could get around this dilemma.

Perhaps you guys could find a replacement word like you did when you replaced ‘death’ for ‘choice’ in pro-choice. Or perhaps like the way you have replaced the word ‘hate’ for ‘love’, when attacking x-gay support groups like Exodus International that are helping real people and their families. The gay-lobby is merciless and cruel in all its ways in pursuit of utopia, endlessly looking for peace with God and rest for its conscious.

@Katie B. –

Perhaps you have forgotten that my God is might in strength (Job 36) and remains in complete control. He gave you the freedom you have to turn away from him.

You religion is irrational and your god is not your friend, yet you continue to worship and deny the disease your god has inflicted you with. Regardless of the facts before you that reveals its path that leads to the destruction of our nation.

You will never succeed as long as the faithful remain. Our minds cannot be changed, because we have been transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12:2) with his words with remain forever.

“The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever. ” – Isaiah 40:8

And as long at the truth remains available, the faithful will be found in every generation. Your god has already lost 2000 years ago, the day Jesus died on the cross and the moment he rose again to take His throne. It is Jesus that sets men free from the wages of sin, not rebellion against him.

“ 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. “ – Romans 8

The promises of God are far better than anything you can offer.

“I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. … No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – Romans 8:38-39

You have nothing compared to the promises of God. We have not only won, but are more than conquerors and nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.

If anyone’s a theocrat, Tim, it’s you.

… sigh.

We know from watching the world around us that the only things that never change are fossils, and by definition, a fossil is dead.

Never mind that the Christian tradition is NOT as fossilized as Tim would have us believe; age for age, it has always managed, sometimes after the fact – sometimes decades or centuries after the fact – to discover an interpretation of Scripture that will allow it to accept present reality and still continue onward. It happened when slavery was abolished; it happened when women gained the right to vote; it happened when African-Americans rose up, and it will happen now.

I leave any further conclusions to you, gentle reader.

If anyone is trying to create a theocracy, Paul, it is you.

Zing!

For the umpteenth time: Removing laws that specifically favor one religion from civil government is the OPPOSITE of theocracy. Marriage discrimination laws not only specifically favor one religion, they specifically favor one INTERPRETATION of that religion.

Tim, on the other hand, is demanding laws based on his holy books.

I cannot possibly state this in any way less or more blunt than this:

ANYONE WHO OPPOSES IMMEDIATE, UNEQUIVOCAL AND FULL CIVIL RIGHTS FOR LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL AND TRANSGENDER PEOPLE IS COMPLETELY, TOTALLY, BLOODY-HANDEDLY GUILTY WHEN WE DIE.

The Tim’s of the world can not be changed, they do not understand that their Religion is not the law. They do not understand that their choice of lifestyle that is their religion (since you make the choice to have a religion, you have zero science involved in religion).

they do not understand that their life of choice of their god is not the same as anyone else and mostly they do not understand that they are indoctrinating, and oppressive, and directly are what they deem others to be.

Based on his writing, Tim appears to suffer from one of the worst cases of confirmation bias I’ve ever seen. Everyone is prone to giving undue weight to evidence that confirms their presently held beliefs, and discounting evidence and arguments that do not.

However, in extreme cases like Tim’s, so desperate is he to continually shore up his beliefs, which no doubt exist in a precarious relationship to his self-identity, he’ll actually invent (false) claims, or conversely, pretend to himself and others that existing evidence doesn’t actually exist.

An example of his penchant for inventing falsities is his concoction of a new definition of ‘theocracy.’ (As has been repeatedly pointed out to Tim in these discussions.) You won’t find Tim’s definition in any dictionary. You won’t find any scholars of religion, sociology or political science recognizing it. It doesn’t reflect any current usage, whether professional, educated in general, or in any vernacular. It’s Tim’s definition and Tim’s alone. He doesn’t seem to realize that no one who reads him accepts his definition. He just continues on, eccentrically telling all of us that, in essence, yes, triangles have four sides.

He’ll also pretend evidence right in front of his face doesn’t exist. I found this bizarre tendency to be a work in a recent exchange with him in which I summarized the basis for my moral outlook. In his reply he stated flat out that I hadn’t provided any. I realized that asking him to read my posting again was futile.

I hope I’m wrong, but it seems Tim is capable of a shocking degree of self-dishonesty. It almost seems to be a prerequisite for any form of extremist belief.

@Eric –

As I recall our conversation, you refused to give a statement regarding your concept of morality. Instead, you just called me a liar for making clear implications of your inability to provide an answer for a rational explanation to build upon.

You remind me of a debate between Frank Turek vs. Christopher Hitchens. Turek is the author of “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist” and Hitchens that author of “God is not Great”
http://www.crossexamined.org/turek-hitchens-debate.asp

In the debate, Turek presents that all the scientific evidence in the world that proves without question that God exists and He created the universe. Do you know what Christopher’s response was? Nothing, he simply refused to respond.

Much in the same way, all the evidence and reasoning is on my side, yet you refuse to acknowledge it because – like Christopher – you are in rebellion against God and your hatred for him reveals your belief in him.

But it is your tremendous faith in God and your rebellion against him that leads you to the same place that Christopher is – at war with God – as he said in this debate, he believes God is evil to create such a world as this in which we are subject to his rule. His solution is for humanity to dethrone God – just as predicted in scripture.

Yet by the evident of his own faith in God, even Christopher realizes God will never be dethroned and all he can do is spit as him and make claims of his injustice and slavery to his rule – while these claims are completely irrational compared to the love that God has shown us.

The love that God has shown for us is greater than anything the universe has ever known and nothing can compare to it. Nothing in all of creation can compare to the love God has shown us in trading his Son’s life for ours. And it is because his love cannot be undone or overcome that his people will remain faithful to him and he will remain on the throne forever.

I wish to see the day that you come to know the God that you have put your faith in.

In the meantime, the facts are in and gay-marriage creates a theocracy that destroys the freedoms that are critical for democracy. Gay-marriage would destroy the nation, as it already has begun to destroy nations like the UK and Canada.

Tim,

You asked me to provide you with a basis for my moral position, which I did. Re-read the post. If my position isn’t to your agreement—it’s amazing this even has to be pointed out–then that doesn’t mean I didn’t provide one. Do you even understand this?

The same fantasy-prone-ness is at work in your statement:

“But it is your tremendous faith in God…”

So, my lack of faith or belief in any god gives me tremendous faith? Please explain that.

“..all the evidence and reasoning is on my side…”

Of course it is, because you’re a dogmatist. You’re not aware of the evidence or arguments from the other side because you know in advance you’re correct. No evidence is necessary. No curiosity about opposing viewpoints is necessary. No self-criticism is necessary. You are your god’s chosen disciple, favored among nearly all humans, and it is to you and your fellow cultists alone who have been gifted with the Truth. You’re blessed with special insight and knowledge and truth about every important question, simply because you’re you. I get it.

Finally,

“In the meantime, the facts are in and gay-marriage creates a theocracy that destroys the freedoms that are critical for democracy. Gay-marriage would destroy the nation, as it already has begun to destroy nations like the UK and Canada.”

You’re delusional and don’t know it.

-Eric

I can say for certain that I do not believe in Tim’s god. In any sense. The most recent historical studies – ones that actually look at history, rather than starting from an assumption of the correctness of Christian historiography and working backwards from that conclusion – suggest that YHWH is a thunder god from a single middle-eastern pantheon whose priests took advantage around 586 BCE of a significant upheaval in their society (caused by the destruction of the First Temple and the subsequent Babylonian Exile) to eliminate, subjugate, or convert the clergy of the other gods in their pantheon and declare their god the one true god.

Tim worships a jumped-up thunder god with delusions of grandeur. Seems rather fitting – a delusional man with a delusional god.

Eric –

Off course I’m aware of the arguments from the other side and I am more than open to hear them again and again as I do on this blog. But I do not find any arguments that are based on facts, nor do they lead to any reasonable conclusion. They are basically just a lot of angry people expressing misinformation and lies directed at God and anyone that believes in him.

The scriptures of Christianity have been under continuously analysis and critical review for centuries. One other work in the entire world has been put to such a test and yet it remains because it is a true story. You seem to believe the lie the Christians are not critical thinkers or have been brainwashed into believing whatever they have been told. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The reason there are over 700 Christian denominations in America, with many biblical universities and scholars testifies to the fact that Christians are very critical of the interpretation of the scriptures. If you watch a debate with Hitchens you will see who the critical thinkers really are and who is completely delusional.

You are the holy one that is unwilling to look in the mirror and see who your really are. I am the one that realizes who I am, part of humanity that is fallen, sinful and wicked. This truth has not been hidden from you. Don’t try to say you didn’t hear about it. You have the same access to it that I have. The same answers to life, the history and future of humanity that I have read are available for you. Just as the same scientific evidence that Turek presented is available to Hitchens. What I don’t understand is why go on living as delusional as Hitchens is? Where do you think that will get you?

Kathy B. –

Regarding your statement; “ANYONE WHO OPPOSES .. gay marriage.. IS COMPLETELY, TOTALLY, BLOODY-HANDEDLY GUILTY WHEN WE DIE.”

Guilty of what and to who? If you do not believe in God than who are we guilty to? Where will we go after we die? What makes it a sin to oppose gay marriage? How will your god enforce this sin that you have defined?

This is fear mongering by your religion and your faith in your god. The very thing that you are accusing Christians of doing, you are guilty of. This statement shows how very religious you are and proves once again that you are trying to create a theocracy in America.

Gay marriage is unconstitutional and will NEVER be instituted in America because of the First Amendment that bans the government from creating any laws against or in support of religion – in which you are clearly trying to force your religion into law.

“Gay marriage is unconstitutional and will NEVER be instituted in America because of the First Amendment that bans the government from creating any laws against or in support of religion – in which you are clearly trying to force your religion into law.”

Guess that means straight marriage is unconstitutional and should be abolished then…

Tim, you are utterly dishonest and you are trying to have it both ways.

There is no gay religion. Gay is who you are, not a way of thinking. Therefore it is not unconstitutional to accept Gay marriage even if you do not support it with your own personal religion. To place in law anti gay perspective is only a religion idea.

therefore time you are anti constitutional and should be banned.

Tim,

You’re really going this all out defending the Chronicles of Narnia, knowing the Aslan would totally gay marry that talking beaver? To Jews, and Spider Queens of Mars, the “Bible” — in the original Hebrew or in any translation — is more like a band that was really great before it sold out and got a new lead singer with flowing locks and a hippy beard, you know, greater commercial success, less artistic integrity, etc. What is its purpose aside from being praised every time someone runs for public office and tearfully quoted at press conferences every time an American citizen goes on a shooting rampage?

The Old Testament has war, sex, wrathful cries for social justice, full-blooded human characters and countless strange tales, while most of the New Testament is vague and boring even in the parts about mass killings, and predicting anti-Christ Barack Obama.

“I will wash your feet, then you go forth and wash the feet of wealthy campaign handlers and make sure they bring in the big bucks so you can make a large media buy. Then, go forth and let businesses pollute my lands,” Jesus said. “And let them see if they can kill off any of the species my Father created while they’re at it. When you serve Big Business, you serve me.”

“Bring me your lepers, poor people, the lame, all those fuckers,” Jesus said, “so I can tell them to get a job.”

“If you do not believe in God than who are we guilty to?”

Apparently Tim is alone in more ways than I imagined.

http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html The Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame, developed by the late Isaac Bonewits.

Detecting these people really SHOULD be that simple.

The religious homophobe who is himself gay, hates others who are gay and happy with their sexualities. This is so because he does not want to be sacrificing his happiness for nothing.

@ Katie, I agree completely. The cult aspect is scary in these religious extremists.

I know that the liberal public at hand, often just passes them over as nuts. They certainly can’t gain power right? is what the non extremist, forget about the word liberal, anyone that isn’t an extremist. But, their talent and their core ability lies within indoctrination. The power, is there. And we should all be on guard to our local, terrorists. Which is the Religious right in our country.

Tim,

So, whenever I make a reasoned argument against something you said, you feel the task of the critical thinker is simply to ignore it and keep repeating yourself? Why do you do this? Have you asked yourself that?

The latest example of this is to repeat your bizarre claim, this time at Katie, that the push for gay marriage would impose a theocracy. You have been repeatedly challenged to defend the claim that gay marriage would impose a theocracy, and yet you refuse.

Do you know it’s a lie and say it anyway? Is this what your faith in Jesus inspires you to do? Is tactical lying a moral value of yours? Is it part of your Christian faith?

No? Then consider either giving up your already refuted claim that gay marriage would impose a theocracy, or defend it.

Do you understand why it’s invalid to define a car as having four legs, being covered with fur and able to speak fluent French? Do you understand how unreasonable it is to be making up definitions for words whenever you think it’s to your advantage to do so? What if I said that your faith requires you to molest children? What if you challenged me on this and I simply repeated myself again and again? What would be wrong with this?

Why then do you think gay marriage has theological content when it obviously doesn’t? Gay marriage might contradict YOUR theology, but it doesn’t logically follow that anything that contradicts your theology must itself be a theological position–it could be scientific, an historical fact, etc.

Eric –

In this article alone, I think I have given enough evidence that gay-marriage creates a theocracy to create a small book.

I see that you are frustrated with the strength of my argument, but that does not dismiss the rational conclusion that I have given. But as you requested, I will once again build upon my case to clearly show why gay-marriage would destroy the nation, as is has already begun to destroy the UK and Canada.

By nature we are born as male and female with sex organs that are designed for each other. Natural law defines marriage, not religion. Nature cannot be changed by wishful thinking or democracy or government power. The institution of Marriage is not something the state created; it is something that the state recognizes in natural law that forms families that are the foundational to social and child development. The natural family structure predates all nations and marriage laws, all the way to the beginning of humanity in which one-man and one-woman leave their parents to become one.

That does not mean people that will not engage in sexual behavior other than our natural design, such as incest, pedophile, polygamy, homosexuality, etc. But the state has no reason to recognize these as natural institutions because they are not foundational to social and child development, especially since there is a mountain of evidence that suggests that these unnatural sexual relationships cause many health risks and mental deceases that result in an average drop in life expectancy of 20 years. These sexual behaviors literally kill society.

Marriage between one-man and one-woman is supported by almost all religions because it is universally understood that sexuality is a moral act, in which there is an absolute and unchanging natural law defining right and wrong. For example, having sex with children is wrong not because religion says so but because our conscious tells us so. The existence of right and wrong leads to an answer to the question of who create it and where can it be found. Without an objective and unchangeable standard, civil laws cannot be made that will not discriminate against someone who has a difference belief of what is right and wrong. If someone believes incest is right and they get enough support to create a law that legalized incest, it would discriminate against everyone else that holds a different belief and our children would be suggest to sexual predators. Without a true definition of what is right and wrong it is impossible not to have a theocracy, because the state must choose which moral beliefs to code into law and which to discriminate against.

If sexual behavior outside of marriage between one-man and one-woman is ruled by society to be anything but wrong, then it is impossible for the state to be anything but a theocracy. The argument for gay-marriage is an argument that the state is already a theocracy, in which a new theocracy should be created to overthrow the existing theocracy with a new definition of morality, so that everyone else can and will be discriminated against. If that were to happen, the freedom of religion would be lost, followed by state control of churches and businesses as the freedom of speech and belief is controlled by the state. This is not something that could happen or may happen, but something that has already happen in Canada and other nations that have taken this path of destruction.

The loss of religious freedom, causes the ownership if private property to be subject to state discrimination with regard to its moral position. This has also happen in nations like the UK where owners of businesses that have a moral obligation to live out with their customer have been sued out of business. Any good economist will tell you that private property rights are vital to economic growth and the loss of private property rights will be the end of economic freedom and growth. This is why an immoral people, a people that no longer hold natural law as the moral standard, can never be free. Freedom can only exist when an objective and unchangeable moral standard can be defended and upheld in law. Gay-marriage is unconstitutional because it creates a law that has a moral and religious position in direct violation of the first amendment, in which our nation would never again enjoy the freedoms that have led to our success. Our nation, every nation for that matter, hinges on its ability to find and defend the true definition of what is right and wrong.

God gave us the true definition of what is right and wrong and he told us that we cannot live without it. “Man cannot live by bread alone, but by every Word that come from the Lord. “ Yet in foolishness, some people continue to try to find another foundation to build society upon – just as predicted. Jesus said it best when he said, “Nothing else can be laid down as the foundation, other than what has already been laid.”

This is why the battle for marriage is really not about the buzz words by the angry left and if you truly love our country you will join me in defending her against this attack, which is just as dangerous as any other religious extremists on the planet.

Here’s your headline:

Biblethumping theocrat warns of nonreligious interest group’s theocratic motives, promises to write small book about how unclear he is on definition of “theocracy”

Tim,

Not once have you presented an actual argument for why gay marriage would impose a theocracy. Not once. You merely make the claim again and again.

Your latest response repeats your previous pattern of redefining the word ‘theocracy’ to make it into whatever you want it to be. But you don’t offer any reason to think that the actually existing definition of theocracy at all applies to gay marriage as a consequence.

Whatever the case, the logical thing for you to do would be to offer a reason why the standard and universally recognized definition of theocracy is wrong. Let’s take the definition offered by Wikipedia:

“Theocracy is a form of government in which a state is understood as governed by immediate divine guidance especially a state ruled by clergy, or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.”

Do you accept this or not? If not, why? And if not, why should anyone agree with your definition? What is so inadequate about this standard definition? Or, is it the case you’ve never heard of it?

Gay marriage will require a change in secular law. But it won’t require a government under “divine guidance” or a state “ruled by clergy, or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.”

Will gay marriage have implications for SOME (usually right-wing and fundamentalist) Christians? Yes. Is this the same thing as “…a form of government in which a state is understood as governed by immediate divine guidance especially a state ruled by clergy, or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided”?

Of course the hell not.

So, to repeat, if anyone is to accept your claim that gay marriage would impose a theocracy, you first have to address the question of why your invented definition of gay marriage is correct, and why the definition that’s universally accepted is somehow wrong or inadequate.

If you can’t or won’t do this, then I think it’s quite fair to say that you haven’t convinced anyone but yourself. And what are we to think when an individual–you–invents fictions and tries to pass them off as real and true to other people?

Eric

Just to royally blow Tim’s mind:

I am a transsexual woman.

Eric –

I see. So you are convinced that gay-marriage would destroy the nation, but you’re not convinced that I have clearly explained how it would create a theocracy.

Just for fun, let’s use your definition.

“Theocracy is a form of government in which a state is understood as governed by immediate divine guidance especially a state ruled by clergy, or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.”

Morality is the ability to determine what is right and wrong, but if morality is relative to each person and culture, then it cannot be put into civil law without acknowledging that is it superior to personal morality, which could only be true if it was divine. Therefore when a state endorses gay-marriage they are endorsing a divine moral position, in which the state becomes ’governed by immediate divine guidance… by officials who are … divinely guided’ by the divine law they are obligated to defend and enforce.

By definition gay-marriage is the creation of a government law that acknowledges, endorses and must defend a sexual behavior that is in direct conflict with most religions – accept your. Show me your moral position, and I will show you your god. Support for gay-marriage is an admission of your belief in a divine moral position, which is an admission that you have a god that you serve and an order in which you respect your god – which is called a religion. The far-left that pretends to be non-religious is actually extremely and fanatically religious – more so than the far-right and that is why they are such a danger to our nation.

[citation needed]

” if morality is relative to each person and culture, then it cannot be put into civil law without acknowledging that is it superior to personal morality…”

I’m assuming this pearl of fantasy came from one of those True books Tim finds…

Tim,

You wrote,

“I see. So you are convinced that gay-marriage would destroy the nation, but you’re not convinced that I have clearly explained how it would create a theocracy.”

Nowhere in my comments did I state that gay marriage would “destroy the nation.” In previous posts, which presumably you’ve read, I’ve strongly disputed that gay marriage would “destroy the nation.” So, why do you claim that I agree with you? Why should I not consider this a lie on your part? There’s only one reason I can think of, and that’s that your thinking is so muddled as to believe that gay rights, which may end up prohibiting Christian bigots from discriminating against homosexuals, are somehow tantamount to “destroy[ing] the nation”, i.e., gay marriage will cause bridges to fall, riots, famine, the collapse of institutions, civil war, etc. If you actually believe this, you’re delusional.

“Morality is the ability to determine what is right and wrong, but if morality is relative to each person and culture, then it cannot be put into civil law without acknowledging that is it superior to personal morality, which could only be true if it was divine.”

Ever hear of the logical fallacy called non sequitur? It’s when you derive an invalid conclusion from a premise. You commit this fallacy when you automatically assume that civil law must be “divinely” inspired. We know from history that law is created by humans. We have no objective evidence of “divine inspiration.” For you to assume it’s true that law is divinely inspired, you’d first have to provide an explanation as to what that means. Does that mean Jesus whispers the exact text of a law to someone? Does that mean that the “holy ghost” is sitting on the shoulder of every judge? Does it mean that if someone has a religious feeling (which can happen without the assumption of a god) they’re automatically primed to do your god’s will? Even if you could demonstrate that a kind of supernatural inspiration were at work (please provide your theory of how this works), you’d be confronted with the challenge of contradictory accounts of “divine” inspiration. What happens when a Muslim claims that it is divine will to charge minimal or no interest on a loan at the same time a Christian might claim it’s his god’s will to charge as much interest as the law and market will allow?

You also make the illogical jump of assuming that civil law must be superior to personal morality. Counterexamples are innumerable: e.g., someone thinking torture is immoral and the law of the state banning the use of torture.

“By definition gay-marriage is the creation of a government law that acknowledges, endorses and must defend a sexual behavior that is in direct conflict with most religions – accept your.”

I have no religion. Unless of course you assume that having no religion is the same as a having a religion, which is equivalent to saying that having no interest in football is the same as having an interest in football, and not owning a minivan is the same as owning one. You’re free to believe anything you want, of course. And you often do.

“Support for gay-marriage is an admission of your belief in a divine moral position…”

See above and also my note on ‘non sequitur.’

“The far-left that pretends to be non-religious is actually extremely and fanatically religious…”

A clear-cut example of psychological projection if I’ve ever seen one. In any case, the left in this country is actually quite a mishmash of religious and non-religious. There are lefty Christians and Muslims, pagans, Buddhists, atheists and humanists. How this makes all of these people “fanatically religious” as a whole is not clear. I suspect you have no idea either, but it makes it sound more threatening by throwing the word “fanatically” around.

Gay marriage is just around the corner Tim.

Eric

Eric –

In each response, you admit gay-marriage would destroy the nation right after you deny it. That is more than delusional my friend.

In your own response, you admit gay-marriage would destroy the nation, when you agree that the state will discriminates against Christians moral position “.. end up prohibiting Christian bigots from discriminating against homosexuals”, ending the freedom of religion and the right to private property, which is the foundation of economy in the free world.

Gay-marriage would lead the nation back to the dark-ages. I’m just glad it is unconstitutional and will never happen, unless our constitution is discarded. Guys like you just cannot wait to destory the nation, replacing freedom with slavery to the state. State slavery is the leading cause of dead.

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