GOP’s Kriesel, Catholic priest tussle over gay marriage amendment

” they better plan to take on the Archdiocese of St Paul, the Minnesota Catholic Conference, the bishops of Minnesota and the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, for that matter, for our united opposition to abortion and support for the protection of traditional marriage”

First good idea I’ve heard from a Catholic priest in a long time.

Father John Echert

So, the christian thing to do when someone points out that you are breaking US tax law is to lash out at them like a 2 year old on a temper tantrum?

Also, I will be sure to boycott you and your associates while you condone hatred and bigotry. The evil maliciousness in your soul is showing. You are no longer a true teacher of christianity. As a matter of fact, I would say that you are espousing satans will. I will pray that you will again turn to the true teachings of our lord Jesus Christ.

Typical of the Roman church: their doctrline must be imposed, by the state, on everyone. On the other hand, modern secular governments do not permit the church its traditional response to difference: torture and mass murder.

@Chris, True and well put. At least in the US. Unfortunately Uganda is a different story. OTOH, razing the separation of church and state makes both sides vulnerable. Time to tax and regulate religions.

Praise Jebus, God hates freewill, Amen.

What is a threat? to respond with fact and law?

I am very sad for the majority today, that didn’t stand up and do what was suppose to be done.

The Majority should never vote for the minority.

I am very sad for the Law today and the US constitution.

For separation of church and state did not follow suit.

The religious can preach to their congregations about political issues and discrimination all they want. When they decide they need to try to influence political decisions they overstep their rights. The government doesn’t tax them, they shouldn’t “tax” the government.

If “the Archdiocese of St Paul, the Minnesota Catholic Conference, the bishops of Minnesota and the National Conference of Catholic Bishops” try standing between me and my civil rights they should expect to be trampled.

Now about the tax exempt status for political campaigns…

Praise Jebus, God hates the secular state, Amen.

I “resigned” from the church several years ago when a state legislator from Southern Minnesota was denied communion at his mother’s funeral mass because he was pro-choice. I am all for taxing the churches, especially the Catholic church, who have preached hatred for gays and lesbians from the pulpit for years.

Carl
You are wrong, God does not hate. Who is Jebus? What civil rights are you talking about? Is it a civil right that you really have or just something that you think you should have?

There is sadly a lot of nonsense and bigotry being expressed in many of the comments here. IRS rules DO NOT forbid churches from lobbying on moral issues. What is forbidden is advocacy for a candidate or party (African American churches being the exception to the rule). That is not the case with the Catholic campaign for traditional marriage in MN. Too many on the other side of the issue cannot tolerate opposition and resort to age-old bigotry against the Catholic Church itself or Christianity. Carl is a particularly bad example with his call for the government to ‘tax and regulate’ churches and religion. Trash the First Amendment must be his motto. BTW, the letter from the representative’s office did have a threatening tone, whether intentional or not.

Gay marriage right or wrong, Kriesel’s warning letter was bone headed and legally unsupportable.

Did any of you actually read the article?

The law provides for churches to devote part of their budget to lobbying for various issues.

The Rep doesn’t actually have his facts straight, and Father Echert and Kriesel aren’t “tussling”, and referring to Father Echert as “Mr.” was unnecessarily insulting, especially when Father Echert actually helped get this political troglodyte elected.

But it’s ok to insult Catholics, it’s open season on Catholics in the land of ten thousand geniuses.

well MN…add that to the LONG list of states to NEVER go too in this Hateful,Bigoted,discriminatory country……..what a disgrace america is…….Liberty & Justice for all my ass…EMPTY Words that make america sound better that it actually is, in reality…….LIES and Blatant Hypocracy…….F U america.

Con church commentators,

Try to look at it from the other side. The issue is whether the church is actually violating tax laws, not: “I dont like what they are saying, so they must be”. As Kriesel now realizes, they are not violating the tax laws.

Lets say another group with strong feelings about an issue receives a letter, not from a private citizen, but from an elected offcial wth a partisan position “advising” them that their speech is violating the law and they either need to be silent or they will be punished by the IRS.

How would you feel if it were your group? Would you refute the official’s letter? The “friendly letter” was clumsy, wrong and just plain bone headed.

@Bill.

First, There is no God. The onus is on you to prove otherwise. And don’t just show me some old book. That’s not proof.

Second, Therefore there is no God to hate but his followers sure organize around imposing their own irrational fears on the innocent around them. I suggest you cast your gems across the Westboro Baptist Church pews.

Third, Jebus was an early Hebrew name for Jerusalem and a symbol of my disrespect for the medieval institutions attempting to bind with ignorance and tradition a modern society that longs for justice and progression.

It is easier to prevent Theocracy than to bring it down.

Praise Jebus, God hates anything that scares the Pope, Amen.

Are you saying that a private citizen can’t have an opinion and express it? It’s funny how leftists and atheists are all for free speech when it’s them, but when it’s conservatives or a pastor, they’re all for shutting them up. The priest was not speaking for his Church, he was just pointing out how supportive he’d been in the past and how unsupportive he’ll be in the future.

The Catholic Church does not impose its will, it proposes. The state can (and will) do what it wants. But for the Church to stand there silently, no, it can’t.

@David,

The priest is not merely voicing an opinion. He is “organizing a campaign” with the goal of imposing his religious views on all within its influence. I support any church or individual’s right to express an opinion but take deep and abiding umbrage with the rise of a religious state no matter it’s stage of development.

And if the priest has mounted a political campaign, as the Rep. suggests, then I demand documentation, regulation and adherence to man’s laws with respect to it’s actions and a review of it’s tax exempt status. Let the church threaten me, I’m unimpressed.

Praise Jebus, God hates a free and uncluttered mind, Amen.

David,

If he was speaking as a “private” citizen, why did he use his title and church affiliation? See: “Greetings from Father John Echert, Pastor of the Parishes of Holy Trinity and St. Augustine in South St. Paul.” If he was speaking as a private citizen, the above should have been missing.

So sorry no, I was speaking from the church and not as a private citizen. Which again proves our point that the marriage amendment is religiously driven and has nothing to do with solving a secular problem.

There is a difference between speaking out as a private citizen, or even as a leader of a religious, tax exempt organization…and organizing a campaign to influence legislation as a leader of a tax-exempt organization.

Is this really news?

Must learn to proofread better!

“I was speaking from the church and not as a private citizen”. Should be “he was”.
Sorry for the confusion.

I am so ridiculously in favor of taxing churches whether they’re influencing elections or not. We tax Disney and Pixar. I don’t see why a few companies that makes entertaining fantasies is more exempt than the others just because they use older source material.

@Scott,

No sweat, your point is well made. Echert is imposing his religious office and title beyond his own organization and it’s members. That is a violation of the First Amendment and makes him and his cohorts enemies of Democracy. We need to bring home the fight for freedom and a rational society before these fundamentalists finish their power move on American social and political structures.

It’s easier to prevent than overthrow Theocracy. Ask Iranians.

Praise Jebus, God hates non-religious social structures, Amen.

@Bill:

According to the bible: Malachi 1:2-3 declares, “’I have loved you,’” says the LORD. But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ ‘Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?’ the LORD says. ‘Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.’”

Looks like God does hate.

I’m so in favor of Kriesel resigning.

If the guy is so defensive that he attacks his friends because he favors buggery on some level, he should resign.

When will the hate stop?

I bet the catholic church would much prefer a democrat in that seat…

This priest has the right to express his views to his legislator. I noticed the legislator ‘dissed’ the priest by addressing him as ‘mister’ instead of Reverend or Father. The problem with libs is that they want to kill the messenger as opposed to dialogging over the issue.

Irish,

The priest as a PRIVATE citizen has a the right to express his views to his legislator. It’s a whole different matter as the parish priest. He used BOTH his title and church name, so he was speaking as part of the organization NOT as a private citizen.

It’s not that we poor libs are out to kill the messanger, we just want people to be honest about what they are doing. There is difference between a priest using his office to communicate and sending a letter as a resident of the district.

It seems entirely possible that Kriesel and his staff were informing Father Echert, as a courtesy, that they may want to be careful because they may be breaking the law. It sounded straight forward to me- not threatening.

How much of Father Echert’s parish do you suppose spent on that email to Mr. Kreisel? Do you think it was close to 20% of their annual budget?

@Ray

HOW DARE YOU CALL HIM MR! YOU ARE TO USE HIS PROPER TITLE YOU LITTLE DISRESPECTFUL TWIT! DIDN’T YOUR MOTHER TEACH YOU ANYTHING!

It’s time to boycott the Basilica Block Party.

95% of the funds raised by the event go to support the Roman Catholic Basilica of St. Mary, which is, for those who don’t know, St. Paul & Minneapolis Archbishop Nienstedt’s co-cathedral. That’s right. It’s Nienstedt’s second official church. Those who oppose the anti-gay marriage amendment and want to “take on the Archdiocese,” should start by NOT supporting Catholic churches. Passing the anti-gay marriage amendment is the number one priority of the Catholic bishops of Minnesota, with Archbp. Nienstedt leading the effort. It’s time to hit him in his pocketbook.

Sure, the Basilica is also a regular parish (besides being Archbp. Nienstedt’s other throne room), but like every other Catholic priest, the Basilica’s pastor, when push comes to shove, will tell you that he’s against same-sex marriage, and that homosexuality, as his church teaches, is an “objective disorder.” The Basilica will fire an out gay or lesbian employee who publicly supports same-sex marriage. The parish offers nothing for same-sex couples. The Basilica pretends to be inclusive, but it’s all talk and no walk.

Outside Catholic groups will be pouring gazillions into Minnesota to see that the anti-gay marriage amendment passes in 2012. Don’t give another dime to a Catholic church-sponsored event.

As for missing out on a big outdoor summer event like the Block Party, do the Catholic thing and “offer it up.” Same sex couples and their allies will thank you. If you oppose the anti-gay marriage amendment, boycott the Basilica Block Party.

May want to reconsider calling someone father if you read the bible. “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” (Matthew 23:9). That’s right catholic’s don’t read the bible.

As far as a catholic priest worried about same sex marriage, may want to check what the bible says about being a pedophile first. “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6, Mark 9:14, Luke 17:2) Child molesters within the catholic church which millions of catholic’s don’t seem to mind sending their children to every week and give their money for the priest defense fund.

Might want to check the bible that homosexuality was never brought up by jesus some scholars think if jesus were an actual person he showed homosexual tendencies. “And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about [his] naked [body;] and the young men laid hold on him” (Mark 14:51) and others I could could quote but you get the idea. Homosexuality as an abomination was an old testament law (Leviticus 18:22). Another abomination was eating shellfish (Leviticus 11:10) Enjoy your crab legs and lobster.

Finally, the last thing I would want is the bible much less the catholic church to speak about moral issues. Last time it was called the Dark Ages.

@Thor,

Your suggestion, while well intended and a good start, is insufficient for the majority like myself that have never supported a Catholic cause or attended the Basilica Block party. My suggestion is to use the Block party, and any fundamentalist public gathering, as an opportunity to show the zealots what we think of their power seeking malicious machinations. They should be forced to look at the people who’s lives they are trying to control and made to publicly answer for the liberties they would destroy. Let the games begin!

Praise Jebus, God hates disorderly subjects, Amen

@Carl,

I’m with you, Carl. The Block Party annually draws around 25,000 paying folks. I’m hoping to reach some of them before they buy tickets this year (tickets went on sale May 7). I heard they cleared about half a million from last year’s Block Party.

In my post, I forgot to mention two things:

1. In its defense, the Basilica will say that 95% of the funds raised go to the on-going restoration of the Basilica, a century-old landmark. But what’s that landmark used for? There are occasional public concerts inside, but over 80% of the time it’s used for Roman Catholic worship services – including a ton of weddings, exclusively Catholic, of course. There are plenty of deep-pocketed conservative Catholics who’ll open their wallets and purses to ensure the Basilica doesn’t come tumbling down.

2. The Basilica has already fired an employee for speaking her mind on same-sex marriage. Lucinda Naylor, the Basilica’s artist in residence, was fired by the pastor last fall after she publicly opposed Archbp. Nienstedt’s anti-gay marriage DVD, in which Nienstedt, just weeks before the election, called for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. It’s rumored that of the several closeted gay employees on the Basilica staff, not one came to her defense. Whatever it takes to keep your job, I guess.

Finally a lawmaker who his calling out religious entities for lobbying and their tax status as a supposed non-profit.

So did you hear about the one about the priest and NRA rep who walk into the White House?…..

Perhaps the challeng to Catholic rallying against gay marriage should be to have the local priests organinize a weekend get away to train teen age Catholic boys for the campaign, with no lay adult supervision …

Be curious to see how many parents sign their kids up

@Thor,

Well put. It seems what little moral authority Catholicism once had diminishes faster with the churches flailing attempts to reassert and widen it’s influence. They have Vatican City which is more than the Protestant zealots can claim. That should be satisfactory.

Praise Jebus, God hates religious freedom, Amen.

To Louis- Jesus did deal directly with the gay marriage issue, in the Bible’s New Testament, in Matthew 19:4–6: “And He answered and said to them, ‘Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning “made them male and female,” and said, “For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh?” So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.’ ”

Since Father Echert is so concerned about “basic moral principles and family values”, he might want to include in his parish campaign an examination of the sexual molestation of little children by pedophile Catholic priests and it’s coverup by the church hierarchy. Surely, everyone should know where God stands on that subject.

St. Thomas

TRUTH. A Kiev art museum contains a curious icon from St. Catherine’s Monastery on Mt. Sinai in Israel. It shows two robed Christian saints. Between them is a traditional Roman ‘pronubus’ (a best man), overseeing a wedding. The pronubus is Christ. The married couple are both men.

Is the icon suggesting that a gay “wedding” is being sanctified by Christ himself? The idea seems shocking. But the full answer comes from other early Christian sources about the two men featured in the icon, St. Sergius and St. Bacchus,2 two Roman soldiers who were Christian martyrs. These two officers in the Roman army incurred the anger of Emperor Maximian when they were exposed as ‘secret Christians’ by refusing to enter a pagan temple. Both were sent to Syria circa 303 CE where Bacchus is thought to have died while being flogged. Sergius survived torture but was later beheaded. Legend says that Bacchus appeared to the dying Sergius as an angel, telling him to be brave because they would soon be reunited in heaven.

While the pairing of saints, particularly in the early Christian church, was not unusual, the association of these two men was regarded as particularly intimate. Severus, the Patriarch of Antioch (512 – 518 CE) explained that, “we should not separate in speech they [Sergius and Bacchus] who were joined in life”. This is not a case of simple “adelphopoiia.” In the definitive 10th century account of their lives, St. Sergius is openly celebrated as the “sweet companion and lover” of St. Bacchus. Sergius and Bacchus’s close relationship has led many modern scholars to believe they were lovers. But the most compelling evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, written in New Testament Greek describes them as “erastai,” or “lovers”. In other words, they were a male homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was not only acknowledged, but it was fully accepted and celebrated by the early Christian church, which was far more tolerant than it is today.

Contrary to myth, Christianity’s concept of marriage has not been set in stone since the days of Christ, but has constantly evolved as a concept and ritual.

Prof. John Boswell3, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the “Office of Same-Sex Union” (10th and 11th century), and the “Order for Uniting Two Men” (11th and 12th century).

These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiatied in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.

Such same gender Christian sanctified unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12th and early 13th centuries, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (‘Geraldus Cambrensis’) recorded.

Same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe list in great detail some same gender ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th century rite, “Order for Solemn Same-Sex Union”, invoked St. Serge and St. Bacchus, and called on God to “vouchsafe unto these, Thy servants [N and N], the grace to love one another and to abide without hate and not be the cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God, and all Thy saints”. The ceremony concludes: “And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded”.

Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic “Office of the Same Sex Union”, uniting two men or two women, had the couple lay their right hands on the Gospel while having a crucifix placed in their left hands. After kissing the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other, after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both communion.

Records of Christian same sex unions have been discovered in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, in Istanbul and in the Sinai, covering a thousand-years from the 8th to the 18th century.

The Dominican missionary and Prior, Jacques Goar (1601-1653), includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek Orthodox prayer books, “Euchologion Sive Rituale Graecorum Complectens Ritus Et Ordines Divinae Liturgiae” (Paris, 1667).

While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, homophobic writings didn’t appear in Western Europe until the late 14th century. Even then, church-consecrated same sex unions continued to take place.

At St. John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope’s parish church) in 1578, as many as thirteen same-gender couples were joined during a high Mass and with the cooperation of the Vatican clergy, “taking communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together” according to a contemporary report. Another woman to woman union is recorded in Dalmatia in the 18th century.

Prof. Boswell’s academic study is so well researched and documented that it poses fundamental questions for both modern church leaders and heterosexual Christians about their own modern attitudes towards homosexuality.

For the Church to ignore the evidence in its own archives would be cowardly and deceptive. The evidence convincingly shows that what the modern church claims has always been its unchanging attitude towards homosexuality is, in fact, nothing of the sort.

It proves that for the last two millennia, in parish churches and cathedrals throughout Christendom, from Ireland to Istanbul and even in the heart of Rome itself, homosexual relationships were accepted as valid expressions of a [Christian] god-given love and commitment to another person, a love that could be celebrated, honored and blessed, through the Eucharist in the name of, and in the presence of, Jesus Christ.

“… in the evening the youth came to him [Jesus], wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.” —The Secret Gospel of Mark, The Other Bible, Willis Barnstone, Editor, Harper & Row, San Francisco, 1984, pp. 339-342.

http://www.christianity-revealed.com/cr/files/whensamesexmarriagewasachristianrite.html

Seek no more.

I’m sorry – the good reverend made clear that they wanted to influence laws based on his religious beliefs, even though it is clearly laid out in our constitution that the government may not enact laws favoring any particular religion.

He also announced that he would be starting a campaign within the church to influence the law. This is against the law for non-profits. This is not about being a church, it is about being a non-profit entity. Non-profits gain tax benefits (usually the absence of most or all taxes), with the proviso that, essentially, they do not engage in politics, and a few other behaviors.

Roman Catholics do not have a church, they have a cult. It indoctrinates and threatens children, supports the most barbaric sexual impropriety while attempting to control the sexuality of others, uses really sick mind control techniques, recruits among the most vulnerable populations so it can have willing ignorant victims, and exists to make money. Money is their real god, not God and not Jesus. There is nothing biblical in the behavior of this church. I really hope there is a hell for the Catholic leadership to eternally suffer, but I gather from their behaviors that they are all actually atheists so that kind of thinking is unlikely to affect their actions on earth.
So why did formerly courageous Kriesel go all apologetic and kiss-assy in the end? Did they threaten to direct some of their considerable assets toward his opponents, maybe?
Biblical ethics would totally rule here…..

let the catholic morons pass their little marriage amendment! When prop H8 gets to the supreme court and it’s finally relegated to the dustbin of human religious idiocy the pedophile church of rome will be weeping a river lamenting the fact that all the millions they piss*d out on this referendum now can’t be spent to defend their child hump*ng pedophile priesthood! LMFAO!!

Hey Nero had it about right, “too many christians, not enough lions”…………

the catholic church becomes less relevant to more people’s lives each day… exactly because of this kind of stuff.

To begin with, I am surprised at how many people are so willing to stand up and fight for what is wrong and the few that have the courage to stand up for the faith. For those of you who have stood up for the faith you are not alone. There was not a thing Fr. Echert said that was wrong. So many of you have different opinions and views on this issue, and the majority of the views and opinions are based off of your own moral guidelines. People are intolerant of the Catholic Church and her teachings, or at least from everything I have read from these past comments. There were comments regarding the “Christian thing to do” in this situation and I believe judging Fr. Echert is not the Christian thing to do. Unless you know the man personally, who are you to judge him? The immaturity level of some of the people who commented on this was surprising too. Please, if you are going to leave a comment let it have some thought; unless the true purpose of your comment was to show your own immaturity level.

The Catholic Church does not “hate” gays. God is Love. Just because a group disagrees with how a person or group of people are acting and living (because they are in sin) does not equal hate. Denying communion to someone who is openly pro-choice is completely acceptable and permitted in the Catholic Faith. You cannot be pro-choice and Catholic. Murdering innocent and unborn children is sinful and a horrible act and the denial of communion would be the right thing to do. The same goes with open homosexuals who try to receive communion. If you are openly homosexual (and you are acting upon the tendencies) then it is mortally sinful and denial of communion is necessary.

There are many ways to interpret the bible. Figuratively and literally are the two biggest ways to interpret scripture and too many of you used the literal sense in cases. What goes with interpreting the bible also come moral and ritual law. This is where the abomination of another man sleeping with another man comes into play. Moral law (such as homosexuality) was law written in the Old Testament and stayed the same with the renewal of the New Testament. Ritual law (such as eating shellfish or cutting your beard) was wiped out with the first coming of Christ. Also, make sure you are using a good version of scripture (the bible) that is actually approved by the Catholic Church otherwise your points are invalid.

What more proof of God’s existence do you need? Did you take biology in high school? Ever study a cell and its structure? It is so complex. The human person in general is very complex. Look at a tree and its properties. Look up at the sky or take a course in astronomy. There is no way that nothing is causing all to be. SOMEthing causes everything to be. Even if you do not believe in God you have to admit that there is a high power out there that made everything and caused things to be. Take a course in philosophy.

Echert is not imposing his beliefs or views on anyone. If you are a true Roman Catholic, then you would agree with Echert on all his points because he is a very honorable man and he speaks the truth passed down to him through Christ and His Apostles.

@wendy In regards to the Icon of Sts. Sergius and Bacchus, how are we to know that Christ is “sanctifying” a supposed “wedding” because he is not. That is absurd! Also, I’m pretty sure that if the two people were saints then they probably were not gay. How do you know the source you retained your information from is truth? Are you saying it is truth or is someone else because I would disagree that it is truth. Your information sounds quite biased to be blunt. Besides *big point here*=> it is not a sin to be homosexual. The sin comes with the act.

All must remember that nobody is perfect. You can all look back into your lives and find at least one occasion that you are not proud of or you wish you could take back. A priest or clergy member is a human and other than their title, position, and experience in their field they are no different than anyone else on this earth. We are all called to serve and love because GOD IS LOVE. Look at all the bad in the world and corruptness everywhere we turn. It is horrible that there are pedophiles and child molesters within the Church but you find them everywhere. Why is it that when it happens in the Catholic Church there is such an uproar? It does not make sense to me.

I read each and every comment after reading this article and addressed the comments as necessary. This is what happens when someone stands up to speak the truth. Nobody likes to hear it so they will bash it and try to break the one who speaks it. The sad thing is that people know the truth but because they do not like the truth they will fight against it. Remember that even if you do not believe in God, we all have to answer to him when the end comes. This is truth regardless if you accept it or not. Remember that.

In Christ,
Apologetic for the Roman Catholic Faith

In regards to referring to a religious leader as Mr.:

I do not recognize this man as my Father, why would I call him Father.
Unless he has spawn a child with one of his nuns or any other female. Is he a father by the english language definition?
When I have had sex with a priest from the Catholic Church or a pastor from the Lutheran Church I never said oh father that feels great, or pastor do me harder.
I am not being sarcastic, in fact it was in 1978 when I was 17. My “FATHER” was a patient at Mayo clinic in Rochester, MN when outside the adult bookstore I met a Lutheran Pastor whom was there on official church business “I was Told” and was staying in a hotel near where my Mother and I was staying. I was invited to his room, to be honest the outfit that they wear, you know the collar and such was a turn on for me so when I was invited to his room of course I accepted. Even today I fantasize about this blond curly haired young man, it was great sex and the beginning of a lifetime of seeking religious leaders to satisfy my desires. Just to be fare my first experience with Catholic Priest was in my home state of Illinois, the confession booth, which became my favorite as the fear of being heard or caught made the sex that much more exciting. I never called them Father!

One day soon our Constitution will be adhered to as times are a changing, Agnostics and Atheists are no longer afraid of expressing themselves. Just like the rights that will come to the gay community, so will there be equal rights for all believers and non believers.

Before you judge me, remember I was a 17 year old boy, they were men, leaders of the church, although hypocrites.

You all need to accept the fact that we are just humans doing what humans have been doing as is documented even in the words written in your bible, it is natural (to us) it feels good we like that, just like all creatures on this earth. We are sexual beings!

Lori Wilfahrt Speech at Outserve October 2011

Representative Kreisel in his speech opposing placing a constitutional marriage amendment on the ballot referred to U.S. Army Corporal Andrew Wilfahrt (Killed In Action in Afghanistan in 2011). A few days ago, the mother of Cpl Andrew Wilfahrt (Killed In Action in Afghanistan in 2011) speak at the first conference of OutServe.org (The Association of Actively Serving LGBT Military Personnel) after the repeal of the military’s discriminatory Don’t Ask Don’t Tell (DADT) policy. Lori Wilfahrt’s speech was elegant: graceful, dignified, and powerfully simple.

Andrew Wilfahrt’s legacy is just beginning because of the extraordinary efforts of both his parents for the cause of marriage equality. For military and civilian gay people, marriage equality would mark the end of the last major vestige of government-sanctioned discrimination in our country. The ideal of equality is baked into the soul of America. The Founding Fathers considered the ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to be unalienable rights, even though their own lives did not reconcile discrimination based on race, gender, and sexuality. The reconciliation of the ideal in concept with the actual experience of equality has taken hundreds of years. Andrew’s legacy now contributes to that reconciliation of equality, through the speeches of his parents (multiplied on the Internet) and conversations around “Andrew’s Round Table.”

I can imagine that the spirit of Cpl. Andrew Wilfahrt is dancing for joy to experience his mom and dad speaking with such elegant power. With grace and dignity, they are embracing positions of advocacy accidentally arising because their son (who happened to be gay) had the courage to volunteer for the military, and gave his life serving a country founded on the ideal of equality.