Religious right lawyers defend Anoka-Hennepin schools’ LGBT policy

When oh when did kindness, civility and citizenship go out of vogue in favor of religious doctrine to subjugate?

It’s time for the school board to step up and push back as a public institution against this external force from the evangelical community. Enact a policy and dismantle it later when the bias and bullying have subsided, the roll is to educate and inform the students, to lead them to a fuller life and understanding of society and citizenship, the roll is not to cloister and withhold educational moments. Carpe Diem school board.

Jeff Wilfahrt, Rosemount, MN

When has the public school system succumbed to the religious doctrine? You want to teach only the one opinion, and indoctrinate your children? go to Religious school or home school.

You can pretend that Gay people are not real, but the don’t ask don’t rule is not in law anymore!

http://www.anoka.k12.mn.us/education/components/whatsnew/default.php?sectiondetailid=233410&itemID=34540

Truth is important. Attitude is just as important. Those opposed to homosexuality on religious grounds have a responsiblity to present their views with the right attitude especially given the propensity to depression and suicide among homosexuals. School is a tough place for abnormal behaviors. Kids can be very cruel to one another. Most of us learned how to deal with it, some never do.

We as the people have the responsibility to protect our children from the abnormal bigotry, violence, and criminal acts being betrayed to them, by extremists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8oyA5JV7kA&feature=player_embedded#at=13

this is proof of a social lynching and a bigoted man and organization.

One can hide behind the veil of religion, when truth is told the only attitude that is being portrayed is one of true evil by the religious extremists.

The only Propensity to depression is the one created by the social, civil and human injustice that has been put on Gay people in our community

When a group of people are treated with such indignity, it purely follows a sense of depression, such as the Jews committed mass suicides, such as slaves did and the suicides of women being oppressed.

cruelty is taught and is a learned behavior that comes from the parents and people in power in the children’s lives such as religious leaders at their churches. The acts of cruelty must be dealt with but can not be dealt with properly if the cause of the actions are not stopped first.

One can slap the wrist of a man who steals but unless you know why he is stealing and deal with the root of his criminal actions, that man can not be rehabilitated.

Unless you attack the source of the brutal bulling the bully will not cease to bully.

There is no sense of responsibility within the religious extreme community, such as all the wars have been started in the middle east, its all the same!

It starts with the bully! proof in the pudding HG

you personally with the teachings of hate have the blood of children on your hands, along with the mental illness of those who are religiously extreme like yourself.

(Reuters Health) – Boys who bully or are victims of bullies may have a higher risk of mental health disorders as young men, a study published Monday suggests.

The findings, published in the journal Pediatrics, are based on a group of 2,540 boys Finnish boys. At age 8, the boys were asked whether and how often they bullied other children, were targets of bullying, or both. Parents and teachers also answered questions about any psychiatric symptoms the boys had.

This information was then compared with psychiatric diagnoses in young adulthood — made during medical exams for compulsory military service at 18 to 23 years of age.

Overall, the study authors found, boys who habitually bullied were more likely than their peers to be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder as young men. People with this disorder have a disregard for the law and the rights of other people, and are often aggressive or violent.

On the other end of the spectrum, boys who were frequent victims of bullying had an elevated risk of anxiety disorders as young men.

Boys who were both perpetrators and victims of bullying appeared to be the worst off; they had elevated risks of both anxiety disorders and antisocial personality disorder as young adults.

The findings suggest that frequent bullying and victimization is “a red flag that something might be wrong and preventive interventions should take place,” said lead study author Dr. Andre Sourander of Turku University in Finland.

At particular risk are boys who are both involved in bullying — as perpetrator or victim — and have emotional or general behavioral problems, Sourander told Reuters Health.

He recommended that these boys be evaluated by a mental health professional. Boys who are both bullies and victims seem especially in need of help, Sourander noted. Of these boys, who made up 3 percent of the study group, nearly all had some psychiatric problem at the age of 8, he said.

For parents of bullies and bullying victims alike, it’s vital to work with teachers and school health staff to help their children, according to Sourander. “Cooperation between parents, teachers and health professionals is most important,” he said.

“School is a tough place for abnormal behaviors.”

HG is conflating “abnormal” with “different” and is pointing to a behavior he or she is uncomfortable with as something to stigmatize.

My experience has been that stigmas are placed on individuals and groups by folks who desperately want to hold onto some perceived privilege or entitlement, such as a sense of personal power or majority-group dominance. In HG’s case, my guess would be there’s a desire to protect the facade that “normal” means heterosexual.

(HG: How many GLBT people do you know, personally–more than just by name? How many times have you invited them into your home and talked with them about something OTHER than their sexual identity?)

I would say that school–and society at large–is a tough place not for students “with abnormal behaviors” but for students who have any unusual degree of love, compassion, or sensitivity toward others. Society has taught us to hold back our expression of certain emotions, including rage at one end and what is deemed as extreme tenderness and care for others at the other.

In my own religious community, we value authenticity to one’s own self; and faithfulness to follow the universal Loving Principle that is God. Having thought about taking my own life when I myself was a student, I can tell you that my hopelessness came from feeling like I wasn’t truly understood for who I *was.* And I was stigmatized, ridiculed, and shamed for being “too sensitive.”

In other words, my classmates and even adults around me saw that my sensitivity was “abnormal.” They couldn’t see–because of how THEY were socialized–that my sensitivity came authentically from *me.*

Now I understand that my own “sensitivity” comes from a deep desire to show compassion, tenderness, and lovingkindness even to those whose lives and whose loves are different from my own.

I’m working hard to understand HG’s point of view and the multigenerational socialization process that undergirds it.

Seems to me that the policy of a school district–and of a society like ours–should lift up and call out expectations for the Golden Rule, for tenderness, and for kindness, not restrain such affirmation.

All revered medical societies and doctrines state that Homosexuality is Normal. The only abnormal thing is to deny what is truth and fact. I can think I have blue eyes, but my brown eyes say differently!

HG can you please tell me how you can deny facts, Gay is normal.

Who says homosexual­ity is normal? I will list a few…

American Medical Associatio­n
American Psychiatri­c Associatio­n
American Psychologi­cal Associatio­n
American Counseling Associatio­n
National Associatio­n of Social Workers
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
Child Welfare League of America
American Associatio­n of School Administra­tors
American Federation of Teachers
National Associatio­n of School Psychologi­sts
American Academy of Physician Assistants
National Education Associatio­n
Royal College of Physicians

Your opinion is that homosexuality is a sin. Therefore not something you can support. That is fine, believe that. You can pressure society and try to indoctrinate all of society into thinking your way, but that is the abnormality.

Marie,

“The only Propensity to depression is the one created by the social, civil and human injustice that has been put on Gay people in our community”

You better hope your absolutely right about this given the blood you asign to me for holding an opinion. Some research suggests otherwise. I don’t think you want to mislead any of those you so vehemently are defending.

Marie,

Many of us say gay is not normal because we see homosexuality for what it is.

HG these people see it different, where are your facts? degree’s in psychology? social anthropology? Cultural history? The educated society says differently, only your bible that can not be proved right, and is proved wrong over and over again says what you say.

respond to my facts with facts not OPINION!

“Who says homosexual­ity is normal?

American Medical Associatio­n
American Psychiatri­c Associatio­n
American Psychologi­cal Associatio­n
American Counseling Associatio­n
National Associatio­n of Social Workers
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
Child Welfare League of America
American Associatio­n of School Administra­tors
American Federation of Teachers
National Associatio­n of School Psychologi­sts
American Academy of Physician Assistants
National Education Associatio­n
Royal College of Physicians

As for your Bible, it said that the sun revolves around the earth. And the Bible is the unerring Word of God — so how did it get that so wrong?

“some research” says otherwise

research done by religious extremists and are all debunked.

Jeff W said:
“It’s time for the school board to step up and push back as a public institution against this external force from the evangelical community.”

But it’s my understanding the school board at Anoka-Hennepin (at least the majority of them) are behind all this nonsense and the deplorable treatment of LGBT students. I don’t see any possible changes until the current one is replaced or the lawsuit goes forward. This is one of the main reasons I have so little respect for school boards in general. You get a bunch of nut jobs on the board with their own agenda and ……. well…. this is the result.

and then (but not Jeff W)

“use the recent tragic suicides of several students who attended District schools to push their narrow political and social agenda.”

Here we go again…..
The homosexual agenda (or more precisely, the LGBT agenda) crap…..
I wish someone would corner one of these morons and make them explain EXACTLY what this terrible agenda is.

Kevin, the only agenda is that of the religious extreme to try and indoctrinate us all into their religious cults and lifestyles. A lifestyle that has been proven dangerous for anyone that enters it! I see that as a criminal act!

I know many a wonderful faithful person who are now extremely scared of even speaking their minds for the verbal and often physical assaults they get from the religious extremists.

Kevin asked, “I wish someone would corner one of these morons and make them explain EXACTLY what this terrible agenda is.”

Freedom.

Praise Jebus, God hates the secular state, Amen.

Praise Jebus, God Hates non oppression and social justice, Amen

HG one question are all these people wrong? just say yes or No

American Medical Associatio­n
American Psychiatri­c Associatio­n
American Psychologi­cal Associatio­n
American Counseling Associatio­n
National Associatio­n of Social Workers
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
Child Welfare League of America
American Associatio­n of School Administra­tors
American Federation of Teachers
National Associatio­n of School Psychologi­sts
American Academy of Physician Assistants
National Education Associatio­n
Royal College of Physicians

marie,

You do this better than I.

I wonder when the ADF will sue to ban the teaching of evolution in science class? You know they wanna.

Praise Jebus, God hates being fact checked, Amen.

HG once again will not answer . are all the medical associations wrong?

Where is this reporter getting this information? Has he even read the policy in question? This statement simply is not true: “a policy that prevents teachers from discussing LGBT issues in the classroom.” Read it for yourself. The district’s anti-bullying and harassment policy require teachers to step in if there’s anti-gay slurs, etc. Sexual orientation can be discussed in classroom: it should be age-appropriate, factual and connected to the curriculum. http://www.anoka.k12.mn.us/education/components/docmgr/default.php?sectiondetailid=223568&fileitem=48585&catfilter=15049

You are all expecting too much from HG. He is following the typical troll arc. They all start off with a passive-agressive, Pee-Wee Herman – “I know you are, but what am I” approach. Then it’s the conservative talking points – the lies and half truths and they never answer questions. Soon it will be name-calling and double posting to shore up shoddy arguments. Eventually he will get booted from the site. This has happened to all the great trolls – Dennis (who has moved to the Minnesota Independent) – Jimmy/Rudy/Raymond, Tim the religious goof who kept quoting scripture – Xenophobe who used to tell everybody who would listen that, “You don’t understand the Heglesian Dialectic”.
This is just a bump in the road on their way to writing for Fox news.
He has nothing to say and all day to say.
Just ignore him.
For all we know this could be Dennis under a new name. Or Kirk the Conservative Jerk.

I don’t think I am expecting to much one simple question.

HG are all these medical associations wrong.

American Medical Associatio­n
American Psychiatri­c Associatio­n
American Psychologi­cal Associatio­n
American Counseling Associatio­n
National Associatio­n of Social Workers
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
Child Welfare League of America
American Associatio­n of School Administra­tors
American Federation of Teachers
National Associatio­n of School Psychologi­sts
American Academy of Physician Assistants
National Education Associatio­n
Royal College of Physicians

Sorry – I meant Dennis had moved to the Minnesota Post. He’s not liked very much there either.

And Marie – you are expecting too much. He’s never going to answer you. That’s not why trolls troll.

HG will not directly answer your questions – he never does. I call him the “Artless Dodger.”

HG is best left alone and not rebutted. Citizen Carl and others witnessed a long go I had with he/she a week or so ago. HG lost a gay loved one to suicide and if that didn’t get HG across the bridge of love no argument or provocation here will bring him/her to an open heart. Let it lie with HG.

Citizen Carl, can you back me up on this?

Jeff Wilfahrt, Rosemount, MN

Marie,

Absolutely. They are wrong. There is nothing normal about a sexuality practiced by a very, very small portion of society.
http://www3.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/pdf/How-many-people-are-LGBT-Final.pdf

I’m not sure how they are defining normal, but a dictionary definition sure defines homosexuality as abnormal.

abnormal – adj., not normal, average, typical, or usual; deviating from a the ususal or typical: abnormal behavior; unusual.

@Jeff,

I agree.

I find it comforting to replace “homosexuality” with “Judaism” to confirm that these christianists are truley old school bigots.

….And the policy itself stems from a similar 1995 policy, pushed by conservative Christian parents, that said Judaism should not be “taught as a normal, valid lifestyle” in the district’s schools. Barb Anderson of the Minnesota Family Council, has vociferously opposed any changes to the policy on the grounds that they do not want religious issues discussed in schools unless it’s in the context that Judaism is a sin.

I hate to say it, but it’s eerie how much that makes them sounds like Nazis.

HG

Then by your definition so is Christianity, since the majority of the world is not christian. therefore by your rules and definitions Christianity should be criminalized. Being Black is abnormal, being latino in my neighborhood is abnormal, people who are genius are abnormal, and since the Christian God is single than that is the biggest abnormal there is.

You confuse the idea of Minority and Majority with what is normal and what is not normal.

Normal as in mentally stable there is Nothing abnormal with being Gay.

By your thoughts Christian’s shouldn’t get married since there are more people in the world that are NOT Christians. Therefore all others should get married and not Christians.

HG

some see extreme religious practices for what it is… Extreme.

@Marco Luxe

Right on Dude !! The Christian Zionist / ( Fascist) LOVE Israel as far as the Bible is concerned……..As soon as the Jews kill off all of the Palestinians then the Christians can kill off all of the Jews and re-claim Gawds Country!! These Christians NEED to go away Permanently !!

I highly recommend the book Gay, Straight, and The Reason Why: The biology of sexual orientation by Steven LeVay. It’s the definitive volume on the biological basis of sexual orientation. The science is in – we’re born this way.

@Brett. I was wondering the same thing. It took me just a couple of minutes to find the link I posted at the beginning of this thread. It seems the narrative gets out and if there is a bias towards the story, it gets repeated without question. Chalk it up to human nature, not just a lack of professionalism.

Andy Birkey, what exactly is the current status of the “neutrality policy” at Anoka-Hennepin? Just what is this “neutrality policy”? Is there a link to this?

Brett’s link:
SEXUAL ORIENTATION CURRICULUM POLICY as of 02-09-2009

HG’s link:
BULLYING PROHIBITION POLICY INCLUDING CYBERBULLYING as of 10-25-2010
HARASSMENT, VIOLENCE and DISCRIMINATION POLICY as of 10-25-2010

Finally, HG, I quite disagree that you have a “responsibility to present your views” when to do so would violate others’ right to be left alone – especially if you are not asked. Your religious views will not shield you from possible legal charges of harassment nor will it protect you from possible termination at a company with inclusive policies.

CORRECTION:

> Finally, HG, I quite disagree that you have a “responsibility to present your views” when to do so would violate others’ right to be left alone – especially if you are ASKED TO STOP.

Lane, then by all means, please stop messing with my kids education and marriage, since you have no “responsibility to present your views”.

By the way, if you’re going to quote me, you might have the honesty and decency to do so accurately. What I said was “a responsiblity to present their views with the right attitude especially given the propensity to depression and suicide among homosexuals.” That is to say, if someone is going to present their views, then they have a responsiblity to present their views with the right attitude especially given the propensity to depression and suicide among homosexuals.

I’m pretty sure you’re smart enought to know better.

HG, do you have the honesty and decency to admit that allowing same-gender couples to civilly marry does NOT mess in any way whatsoever in any form or shape with your marriage?

HG, your kids’ education will be “messed up” given that it is funded by taxpayers including yours truly. I just hope for their sake that they aren’t learning your “smart mouth” that will only get them into trouble when they grow up and move out.

HG, you fail to distinquish between public and personal spaces. You still do not have a right to present your views, attitude or not, personally to anyone who asks you to stop or to be left alone.

And yes, I’m pretty sure I’m smart enough to know better than you in these matters. Meh.

HG,

“Lane, then by all means, please stop messing with my kids education and marriage, since you have no “responsibility to present your views”. ”

You’re living in a fantasy world if you think that same sex marriage will somehow “mess” with your marriage.

As for your kids, if you’re not a responsible enough parent to present both sides of a moral issue and the public school has to do that for you, so much the better. And if your kids decide for themselves that homosexuality isn’t the sin many Christians claim it to be, what can you do about it? You don’t own your kids’ minds.

Deflection — great rebuttal.

Lane, I thought you knew better, I was mistaken.

There you go again misquoting me. Where did I say my kid’s education would be “messed up”? I didn’t, but that didn’t stop you from lying about it.

Well, you have fun with that. If you don’t mind undermining your own credibility in broad daylight, then have at it.

Eric, The state doesn’t own my kids or their minds, and you sure as hell don’t. When it comes to presenting one’s views, none is more unwelcome than a homosexual’s view of morality being presented on their terms in my child’s school to my child.

HG

No deflection in facts, other peoples marriages, no matter who they are and why they are married have any “Messing” at all with your marriage.

As for your children’s education, i can speak personally on this matter, since I have children at school age. Acknowledging why a bully bullies is the ONLY way to get to the root of the bulling. And if a bully bullies, no matter why it must be STOPPED!

And let me tell you, the minute my child does not receive real science every day of their school career is the day we leave the country. For then the religious western Taliban has taken over.

Marie,

Go back and read. I said messing with marriage, not messing with my marriage. My marriage was never mentioned.

Marie,

This is what I’m talking about.

http://www.queerty.com/can-we-please-just-start-admitting-that-we-do-actually-want-to-indoctrinate-kids-20110512/

“And let me tell you, the minute my child does not receive real science every day of their school career is the day we leave the country.”

Well Marie, you’ll get no argument from me. I respect the rights of parents to raise their children as they see fit.

*yawn*

The notion that parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit is a myth given that society imposes certain expectations and responsibilities on those parents.

The notion that parents have exclusive say over what their children learn in a public school is a myth given that public education is funded by taxpayers including people and other entities who are not currently raising children.

The notion that all children, no matter who they are, have a right to be safe, to be left alone to learn and to thrive while in school is NOT a myth. Unchecked bullying for any reason, attitude or not, violates that right.

HG

Please read links you post, just cause it has a very provocative headline the one concept it has is one I have said over and over again. Which is not about indoctrination, no one wants to “recruit” your child into any form sexuality, it does not want you support any form of sexuality or being.

It does say ACCEPT one does not have to SUPPORT WHAT ONE HAS TO ACCEPT.

And yes you have to accept that being gay is here, always have been here, before Christianity has been! AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

by your own definition, your choice of lifestyle (since religion is a choice) is what is in the minority in the world. therefore your abnormal ways should be done away with.

Exactly what marie said!

Go ahead and read the queerty article, and decide for yourself.

Because of its choice of words, this article was the subject of extensive discussion in the LGBT blogosphere because we knew that it wouldn’t take much for the anti-gay elements to twist those words around to serve as “further proof of the insidious gay agenda which also includes recruiting children …”

Personally, I think this article gave us permission to say out loud that it is okay to expose children to queer sexuality and to let them know there is nothing wrong with it!

Lane…. I also like your use of the word Queer, its a word that people take and use in the oddest ways, such as elite.

Yes, being Gay is not the majority, yes there are more Non gays. There are also less Christians than all other people on this planet. The real difference there? Its a CHOICE for religion. :)

One must accept the facts, but one doesn’t have to support it. If bigotry is your choice so be it, but you must stop NOT accepting gay people. Teach your children what ever you want about being gay. It doesn’t take away from the fact they have been here longer than your religion (what ever that religion is ) they are here despite your not supporting them, and they will continue to be here!

as for the recruit idea of that article that HG linked, I can understand why they would jump at the thought of people recruiting others, its the core definition of what is his religion, they recruit and try to indoctrinate at all times.

http://www.queerty.com/can-we-please-just-start-admitting-that-we-do-actually-want-to-indoctrinate-kids-20110512/
From the article:

“In response to New York’s recently introduced marriage equality bill, the so-called National Organization for Marriage got a bunch of pictures of black people and some guy who sounds like Foghorn Leghorn to repeat the same lies about indoctrinating schoolchildren that they ran in 2009. They accuse us of exploiting children and in response we say, “NOOO! We’re not gonna make kids learn about homosexuality, we swear! It’s not like we’re trying to recruit your children or anything.” But let’s face it—that’s a lie. We want educators to teach future generations of children to accept queer sexuality. In fact, our very future depends on it.”
…..
“And I would very much like for many of these young boys to grow up and start fucking men. I want lots of young ladies to develop into young women who voraciously munch box. I want this just as badly as many parents want their own kids to grow up and rub urinary tracts together to trade proteins and forcefully excrete a baby.

I and a lot of other people want to indoctrinate, recruit, teach, and expose children to queer sexuality AND THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.”

Interesting adult themed article. A little blunt but I get the point after reading the entire article.

HG

yes… theme of article is that you MUST accept!

they are here, they have been here longer than your religion, you must accept that they are part of the community.

the right you have is that you don’t have to support them.

They already are accepted. But nobody “must” accept homosexuality.

Not surprisingly, HG cherry-picked certain passages to present here out of context. The short, concise queerty op-ed argues that

“… Anti-gay opponents are already unabashedly indoctrinating our children with the church and conservative politicians on their side and they make no bones about it.

“Sure, they blow the few instances of parental disagreement over queer education histrionically out of proportion, but we do our opponents an even greater service when we trip all over ourselves promising not to mention queers in front of the kids when in fact we’d love to. And because we hide from this very basic fact and treat it like something to be ashamed of, we end up with watered-down unemotional pleas for equality …”

In other words, we were all children once. Most of today’s children will grow up into adults, and take their place along with the rest of us. It is better to ensure they are schooled in the basic facts of life. Sexuality – including queer sexuality – is one such fact.

Go ahead, read the op-ed in its entirety, and decide for yourself.

HG again, you do have to accept they are real. its like saying the sun and the soil beneath your feet are not real. they are here, they have always been here, and they will always be here.

You do NOT have to support them though, that is your choice and bigotry along with religion is a choice.

you can pretend they are not real but that is not accepting or unaccepting, its just a plain lie.

> They already are accepted. But nobody “must” accept homosexuality.

This is but a version of that talking point “Love the sinner, but hate the sin” used by those who believe erroneously that sexual orientation is a choice.

*yawn*

Lane… yes it is a talking point, but let them not support, bigots will always be here just as there have always been people who are gay. Its your right to be a bigot as long as you don’t force your views onto others. Let them scream from soap boxes, pulpits and town squares their thoughts and opinions. Its their lifestyle choice.

But they MUST accept them. This is a civil in justice and it must be stopped.

Marie, “are real”? Of course homosexauls are real people. Not sure what you mean by that.

Well were finally down to the heart of the matter — acceptance. Homosexuals think they can force society to accept homosexuality as normal. An in-your-face attitude, homosexual ciriculum in our schools, and redefining marriage isn’t winning any popularity contests. This sort of behavior isn’t seen as normal, but anti-social and ill-mannered. There is nothing normal about what goes on in gay-pride parades. There is nothing normal about forcing your view of homosexuality on other’s children. There is nothing normal about redefining marriage. In fact, it’s very offensive behavior. If it’s acceptance homosexuals want, they are going about it the wrong way.

HG You seem to have this idea that opinion is fact. You also do not understand acceptance and support.

You do have to accept gay people. You can think they are not normal people. Fine, let them offend you.

Its your opinion that they are not normal, for it does not agree with your choice of religion. Fine again, don’t support them.

People still think that if you are a race of different color you are not “normal” or as good. People still think that one can not mix races and that is not Normal.

Some people think that your choice of thinking of gays as not normal is not normal. I personally do NOT support your religion, your God, your choices of morality. I find them offensive and down right despicable, I wouldn’t allow you alone in a room with my children, I would find that dangerous. But I accept you have the right to the choices you have made and to live your life the way you seem fit as LONG as you do not force that choice onto me.

I support the civil and social justice of our constitution to allow you to be the bigot you are.

so again, yes you MUST ACCEPT BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPORT.

Marie,

Like I’ve said, they are accepted by your standard.

Even if one accepts gays albeit from the perspective of “abnormal homosexuals,” his opinions do not justify continued ignorance, discrimination and legal inequalities in American society.

HG,

actually Gay is Normal by the largest, most respected, and up to date medical associations across the globe. People who have studied cultural anthropologists, the most respected scientists and educated people across the globe think its normal.

Actually the only ones that do NOT think its normal are the religious extremists. Which is a choice you are allowed to be. Not to mention that Gay was accepted as normal way before Christianity has been around!

remember a tiny clip of associations that state that its normal…

Who says homosexual­ity is normal? I will list a few…

American Medical Associatio­n
American Psychiatri­c Associatio­n
American Psychologi­cal Associatio­n
American Counseling Associatio­n
National Associatio­n of Social Workers
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
Child Welfare League of America
American Associatio­n of School Administra­tors
American Federation of Teachers
National Associatio­n of School Psychologi­sts
American Academy of Physician Assistants
National Education Associatio­n
Royal College of Physicians

Lane, He is allowed to his opinions, He is allowed to be a bigot and to spew it from his roof top as long as he doesn’t indoctrinate me with what he is spewing.

HG can think Gay is not Normal, he can live and die by that, he can continue to even support his organization that thinks the same as he, and he can even teach it to his kids. The thing we HAVE TO STOP HIM FROM is to make it into law, for that is un-Constitutional, Un-American, and ethically and Morally reprehensible.

The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions (over 477,000) is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation.

HG,

Here is some thought about how it is indeed viewed that you are the morally unacceptable and not normal.

The following are some of the dangers that arise as a result of Christian morality:

Unbalanced Views

Belief is generally regarded as at least as important as meritorious conduct — in most Protestant sects faith is all important and all forms of meritorious conduct (“good deeds”) are irrelevant to salvation. It does not matter what we do if our salvation depends on what we believe. This tends to lead Christians to spend their lives in contemplation rather than action. Moreover, action that is taken sometimes appears to be cosmetic, as though done to gain divine merit points. Much Christian aid to the third world has been criticised as superficial and short term, and has arguably been responsible for more harm than good in the long term — for example destroying local economies, breeding dependency, and causing overpopulation. A distorted moral outlook always leads to distorted moral actions. Here is Bertrand Russell on the subject:

The medieval conception of virtue, as one sees in their pictures, was of something wishy-washy, feeble, and sentimental. The most virtuous man was the man who retired from the world; the only men of action who were regarded as saints were those who wasted the lives and substance of their subjects in fighting the Turks, like St. Louis. The church would never regard a man as a saint because he reformed the finances, or the criminal law, or the judiciary. Such mere contributions to human welfare would be regarded as of no importance. I do not believe there is a single saint in the whole calendar whose saintship is due to work of public utility*.

Making medical advances, advancing social reform, and developing life-saving technology was, and still is for mainstream Christianity, far less impressive than performing conjuring style miracles such as levitating or surviving being cut in half.

Personal Responsibility

In traditional Christianity moral precepts are linked to a system of supernatural rewards and punishments. This sometimes leads Christians to believe that they can avoid the consequences of their actions. Many believers imagine that they can wipe clean some sort of divine slate by confession, penitence or prayer. The danger is that people will commit serious wrongs without compunction if they imagine that God will forgive them on request. Abusive priests are known to have confessed to each other, apparently imagining that God would forgive them as easily as their fellow sadists and rapists. There is more than a suspicion that organisations like the IRA, the Italian Mafia, and South American drug cartels retain priests to give absolution to murderers and other criminals. Churchmen and other ardent believers cheer on their fellow Christians who murder doctors for carrying out legal abortions. If a priest or minister has forgiven them on behalf of God then the murderer’s conscience will be clear. Other Christians, believing what they have frequently heard preached, are under the impression that they can sin with impunity, imagining that God hates the sin, but not the sinner.

Fatalism

Traditional Christianity has encouraged a fatalistic attitude, now more popular in the East than the West. The reasoning behind it seems to be something like this: God is all-knowing, he is aware of everything that will happen until the end of time. There is therefore no point in my trying to do anything since my future, like the future of everything else in the Universe, is already determined and already known to God. There is therefore no point in my trying to avoid the plague or a traffic accident. If God has ordained that I am to die today, then there is nothing I can do to stay alive, and if he has ordained that I live, then I cannot die, however recklessly I behave. There is therefore no point in struggling to avoid or overcome disease, no point in avoiding overtaking on blind bends, and no point trying to improve my lot, or the lot of my fellow creatures. There is no point trying to eradicate poverty because Jesus said that the poor would always be with us. This fatalism may account for the fact that Christians have played so little part in reform movements whether social, scientific, political, economic, medical, philosophical, penal, legal or constitutional, and on the contrary have generally opposed reform movements on the grounds that trying to improve life for people subverted the divine natural order, “playing God” and “flying in the face of the Almighty”.

Sex

The Churches seem to many to be preoccupied by sex and suffering, and continue to confuse sex with morality. Concepts of morality where sex is so important lead to conclusions at odds with mainstream opinion (Churches are now increasingly embarrassed by their traditional position that masturbation was a greater wrong than murder, and coitus interruptus more serious than rape).

This preoccupation with sex has led many Christians to reject contraceptive practices. In certain branches of Christianity the problems of overpopulation are simply ignored. Outside these denominations, overpopulation is widely accepted to be one of the greatest dangers facing the world today. Among the dangers are the exhaustion of natural resources, guaranteed periodic famines, an increased danger of contagious diseases, plant and animal species driven to extinction, reduced quality of life for all, a degraded environment, more industrialisation and more pollution. All this is of no consequence to those who know that God wants us to go forth and multiply.

Traditionally, gonorrhoea and syphilis were regarded by Christians as God’s punishment for fornication (though it has never been explained why the punishment extended to the innocent wives and husbands of infected sinners). Dangers associated with sexually transmitted diseases are still exacerbated by Christian attitudes: examples are the Catholic Church preventing the use of condoms where they would reduce the incidence of HIV and Christian politicians and schools resisting vaccination programs against the human papillomavirus virus (which causes cervical cancer) on the grounds that sexually transmitted diseases like this provide an impediment to premarital sex*. Traditional Christian attitudes are reflected in the fact that gonorrhoea among teenagers is now seventy times greater in the overwhelmingly religious USA than it is in more secular countries like Holland and France*. Thousands, perhaps millions, of people throughout the world suffer and die unnecessarily because of Christian attitudes to sex.

Economic Development

The history of northern Europe goes back no further than that of southern Europe, nor does that of North America go further back than that of South America. The question arises as to why in each case the North should be relatively affluent.

Traditional teachings on lending money at interest (usury) stifled economic development for many centuries, until first Protestants and later Catholics decided to abandon this particular doctrine. The delay appears to partially explain why until the twentieth century at least, the largely Protestant North was relatively affluent, inventive, clean and stable, with a well-educated population, while the Catholic South was relatively poor, superstitious, squalid and politically unstable, with a large peasant population.

Is it a coincidence that these areas correspond to traditionally Protestant and Roman Catholic spheres of influence respectively? If we look elsewhere around the world the correlation is similar. One possible explanation is that Roman Catholicism is responsible directly or indirectly for authoritarianism, ignorance, overpopulation and poverty. The disparity, confirmed by objective studies, cannot be explained by geographical location, natural resources, or historical factors other than religion.

Attitudes to Truth

The religious outlook is fundamentally different from the secular humanist outlook. Secular thinkers are interested in pursuing the truth wherever it might lead: Christians are often interested in truth only when it leads to desired conclusions. Christianity has therefore always subordinated rational truth to religious dogma. The consequences of this include book burning, scientist burning, obscurantism, suppression of evidence, rewriting history, linguistic deceits, and hostility to scientific advances. Churchmen are still suppressing or manipulating other information — about the Bible, about the Dead Sea Scrolls, about ecclesiastical forgeries, and so on. As has been frequently observed, eminent scientists have rarely been typical of the religious traditions in which they grew up. Religious dogma made Christianity the enemy of science and free enquiry, and the hostility continues. Having lost medical battles over vaccination, anaesthetics and sexual health, leading churchmen are still fighting rearguard actions, for example trying to prohibit research on embryonic stem cells.

marie, as long as HG continues to express his disdainful, harmful bigotry and lies on this public forum, it is my duty to push back HARD when warranted.

Lane, Yes! I agree, but remember that the KKK is allowed to walk down the street, I am glad there are people like us that will make sure that when they do they wont be allowed to wear their hoods.