Rowley-Kline Debate, Question-by-Question Summary

The following is a summary of the August 25, 2006 debate between Coleen Rowley and John Kline, held on the Jason Lewis show on KTLK-FM.

This is essentially a raw feed of the debate; more coverage and analysis to follow.

* * *Question: Are there any issues you disagree with your party on?

Rowley: “I do consider myself quite conservative,” Rowley said, noting that she had voted Republican before, including for George W. Bush in 2000.  Challenged by Lewis to name a specific issue, Rowley cited campaign finance reform, endorsing the Common Cause plan.

Lewis replied that this was the equivalent of “Democrats on steroids,” and suggested that she was pulling the party leftward.  Rowley replied that unless you address the root causes of corruption, you won’t succeed in reform.

“So you don’t think the Democrats are Naderite enough on campaign finance reform?” asked Lewis.  Rowley responded that she thought the Democrats weren’t “Law-enforcement enough.”

Kline: Kline stated that McCain-Feingold was “really terrible public policy,” claiming that the act made the program worse.  Lewis opined that McCain-Feingold violates the First Amendment (a fact that will be fact-checked).  Kline stated that he thought Bush and the GOP had passed the measure assuming the courts would invalidate the law.  Kline never does state a GOP plank he disagrees with, and is not asked to by Lewis.

Question: What about immigration?

Rowley: Lewis opened with a preamble stating that both parties are lax on border security, and asked  Rowley if she agreed.  Rowley did agree, noting that John Kline voted last year not to fund border security.  Rowley also noted that enforcement of employment laws was down 95% during the Bush adminstration.  Rowley stated that she’s in favor of “comprehensive reform.”

Lewis asked if Rowley supports extending a border wall, eliminating the so-called “anchor baby” phenomenon, or exending Proposition 187-style laws around the country.  Rowley replied that she supports the McCain-Kennedy bill, as well as the similar Bush plan.

“I think immigration’s been a problem for a while, but I would give President Bush some credit for actually trying to address it in a comprehensive way,” Rowley said.

Kline: Lewis said the Bush plan is “amnesty for eleven million illegals,” and that the McCain-Kennedy plan is “amnesty for anyone else who wants to come in.”  Kline agreed, and said the bill was “terrible.”  Kline stated the McCain bill is too complex, with different statuses for different people. 

“The President is wrong on this issue, and certainly the Senators are wrong,” said Kline.

Kline also said Bush’s comprehensive reform made no sense.  “If you live in the Phillipines and you’re trying for months and years to get here legally…it is simply not fair for people who cross the river illegally to come here, live here, work here, send their kids to school here, get their education here, and say that’s not being at the head of the line.”

Lewis stated that 61% of the households in Los Angeles County don’t speak English at home, and that more people in the Southwest celebrate Cinco de Mayo than the Fourth of July.  (Both statements will be fact-checked.) 

Break #1 (Music: “Revolution”)

Question: What of the cultural ramifications of immigration?

Rowley: Lewis asks Rowley if we’re “losing our heritage.”  Rowley responds that America is a melting pot, and that “in some ways it’s good that you have diversity.”

Lewis notes that when the Germans and Italians came over in the last “big wave,” there weren’t any highly-rated German-language radio stations.  (This claim will be fact-checked.)

Kline: English should be an official language, to “make sure the melting pot melts.”

Kline stated that something that has “horrified” Americans is the recent “riots in the streets, people who claimed that they want to become Americans and want to come here were waiving Mexican flags and burning American flags.”  (This claim will be fact-checked.)

Question: Does the President need a warrant in order to monitor international or domestic intelligence?

Kline: Said the NSA program is “critical,” and has prevented “pretty horriffic attacks.”  Said the President’s wiretapping is important, and that he’s kept Congress informed.  (This claim will be fact-checked.)  Kline noted that there is a debate as to whether or not Bush needs FISA approval, and Kline said that he was fine with passing legislation.  “It would be irresponsible of him [Bush] not to have taken the steps that he took.”

Lewis asked if FISA “trumps Article II of the Constitution,” referring to the President’s Constitutional powers.  Kline replied that he doesn’t think so.

Rowley: Noted that a Federal judge just ruled warrantless wiretapping illegal.  “The Carter apointee who’s about to be overturned in the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals?” Lewis asked.  “Well, we’ll have to wait and see,” replied Rowley.  Noted that “the President can’t unilaterally decide to go around the FISA court.”  Also said that she saw the FISA court wrongly viewed as an obstacle during the Zacaraias Moussaui case, and has “seen this from both sides.”

Lewis asked Rowley if she knew who once testified to Congress that the President “has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes.”  Rowley stated that she didn’t know.  Told that the statement came from former Clinton Justice Department official Jamie Gorelick, Rowley averred that she thought this sounded like the Department of Justice, and said this “points to the confusion that existed pre-9/11.”  Rowley also stated that the “wall” between departments had “come down.”

Lewis credited the PATRIOT act with eliminating the “wall.”  Rowley said that the FISA wall should never have existed.  Lewis agreed and blamed the Clinton administration.

Lewis continued on, saying that the FISA statute was ill-advised, overturning “200 years of Commander-in-Chief’s power and tell him he can’t conduct searches for national security purposes.  Rowley responded that FISA was a response to abuses by the government under J. Edgar Hoover.  “They were monitoring peace groups, they were monitoring Martin Luther King, they were monitoring other government officials,” she said.  Rowley also stated that FISA was important, and we need its protections.

Lewis asked about monitoring communications.  Rowley stated that it was legal for the NSA to monitor purely foreign calls–calls originating and termination outside the United States.  Lewis asked how you get a warrant for that, misunderstanding Rowley’s statement.

Kline: “It’s incumbent upon the President–he has the responsibility to make sure he is monitoring those conversations between suspected terrorists and people in this country.”  Stated that the question has only arisen because the story leaked to the New York Times, endangering our national security.  Kline reiterated that he was open to changing statues if need be.

Break #2 (Music: “Back in the USSR”)

Lewis announced that the next two questions were designed to put the candidates “on the spot.”  His first question was for Rowley.

Question: You received good coverage for the Moussaui case, but the Justice Department Inspector-General’s report was in places critical of you.  Was the I-G wrong?

Rowley: Said “I think you should read the report.”  Lewis replied he had parts of the report–Rowley replied that nothing in the report backed up the I-G’s assertion.

Lewis quoted part of the report: “You ‘gave fellow FBI agents in Minneapolis bad or incomplete legal advice as they frantically tried to persuade” FBI Headquarters to grant a search warrant for Moussaui.  Rowley stated that she agreed with headquarters on the legal issues, and there was no disagreement. 

Lewis quoted another part of the report.  “‘We believe it is important to state that we did not conclude that any FBI employee committed intentional misconduct.’”  Rowley stated that she didn’t say anything was deliberate, but that she believed it was important to “unravel mistakes.”  She said she was proud of the I-G’s report, because it did that.

Lewis suggested the problem was the FISA hurdle, that FISA created the problem.  Rowley advised that there are emergencies exceptions–a 72-hour exception for warrantless montioring.  Lewis asserted again that we were unable to search Moussaui’s computer because of FISA.  Rowley responded that Lewis was wrong, and said flatly, “It’s all there in the I-G’s report, just read it.”

Rowley notes the question of why she didn’t go to the criminal court–and stated that Plan B for Moussaui was for him to be transferred to another country where he could be searched.  Lewis said he wasn’t criticizing Rowley for not going to court.  He asserted again that FISA is bad law.

Question: “These Big Bad Energy Companies.”  Let’s talk about an energy company that made $410 million last quarter.  They get subsidies and credits, and are selling their product for $5.75 a gallon.  Shouldn’t we rein-in these price gougers?

Kline: Noted the GOP has passed anti-gouging legislation.  Lewis interrupts, and says “I kind of tricked you.”  Lewis revealed that the energy company is Archer-Daniels-Midland, and the fuel is ethanol.

Kline replied that ethanol companies will soon be able to “stand on their own,” and that ethanol could allow us to achieve energy independence.  Lewis stated that ethanol is less efficient than petroleum, and that politicians are acting as “lapdogs.”

Kline noted that long-term, it reduces our dependence on oil.  Lewis said that ethanol costs more than gas, and “where’s the break?”  Kline said that ethanol is coming, and noted that in Brazil, they run on ethanol.

Lewis noted that we don’t allow imports of Brazillian ethanol, Kline averred that we’re allowing the American ethanol industry to grow.

Rowley: Lewis says that Rowley has also been beating up on “big oil.”  Says the cumulative tax rate for Chevron, Exxon, and Conoco was 41% in 2005.  (This claim will be fact-checked.)  What tax breaks are big oil getting?

Rowley responds that the energy bill of last year provided tax cuts for oil companies, but cannot cite subsidy–quotes a figure of about $40 billion.  (This claim will be fact-checked.)  Lewis says that oil companies get less in profit than the government earns on gas taxes. 

Rowley asked, incredulously, “You’re saying the oil companies are getting a raw deal right now?”  “Yes, in some ways,” replied Lewis.

Break #3 (Music: “Taxman”)

Question: Why not drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge?  When the Prudhoe Bay line went down, we lost 400,000 bbl/day.  ANWR could provide 900,000 bbl/day.  (This claim will be fact-checked.) “Now what on Earth are we doing (because we hate Big Oil), telling them we can’t go to this frozen tundra, that is dark sixty days out of the year, has no trees–that we can’t get in there and produce twice as much as Prudhoe Bay?”

Rowley: “It’s a good question, and it will probably be a good contrast between John Kline and myself.”  Reason she opposes drilling in ANWR: “It’s not a real solution.  It will take five, six, seven years for us to use that oil, and it will fuel the United States for a couple, or maybe just a few months.”  (This claim will be fact-checked).  Said we need to move forward to research more alternative fuels.

Lewis replied that he had just told her that ANWR could produce anywhere from 900,000 bbl/day to 1.2 million bbl/day.

Kline: We should be drilling in “This is a national security and economic issue.  Will it solve all of our oil problems?  Absolutely not.  It’s not a long-term solution–we do need alternative energy solutions…but we ought to be taking advantage of those huge resources.”  Also recommended drilling in the outer continental shelf. 

Lewis noted that state and federal governments have brought in $1.34 trillion in gas taxes since 1977, and asked Rowley if we should cut gas taxes.  Rowley noted that taxes pay for maintenance roads, and we shouldn’t get rid of them.  “The good thing about some of your questions is they allow the audience here to do further research.  Hopefully we’ll get some people that are going to cast more light on some of the things you just said.” 

Break #4 (Music: “Good Day Sunshine”)

Q: Average unemployment in the 1990s was 5.2%.  Current unemployment is 4.8%.  (Thes claims will be fact-checked).  Shouldn’t the tax cuts be extended?

Kline: “I’ve been trying to extend them almost every waking hour since I’ve been there.”  The economy is growing faster than 4%.  (This claim will be fact-checked).  Revenues are up, the economy is robust, “It is running well.”  We are seeing a shift from housing investment to business investment.

Rowley: Said we see a squeezing of the middle class.  Also said that unemployment doesn’t measure the people who have given up looking for a job.  Health care prices are up 60%, tuition up 60%, median income is down.  Lewis contradicts Rowley, says median family income is up.  (All claims will be fact-checked).  Rowley said we must be

Lewis asked  if Rowley is against extending tax cuts.  Rowley says she would rescind estate tax cut, would also be in favor of raising capital gains taxes on the rich, supports some tax cuts on the middle class.

END OF DEBATE